Any other evening I’d be writing a full blown expansion post considering all of the news and speculation today, but the mighty Blackhawks have just won their first Stanley Cup in 49 years!!! It was a little weird that Patrick Kane was the only person in the building that realized that he scored a goal for about 5 minutes, but it more than worth the wait considering that Chicago hockey fans have been suffering for five decades. A tad over 3 years ago, I went to a Hawks-Red Wings game with one of my buddies where the United Center was about half full and the majority of people that were there were Detroit fans. Yet, Rocky Wirtz has been able to completely reverse what seemed to be irreversible damage that his late father had caused to its fan base. I wrote this piece last year about the Hawks being the “Prodigal Franchise” of Chicago and how it has gone about regaining an entire generation of lost fans. Well, those fans definitely aren’t lost anymore. As I sit here in my Blackhawks sweater tonight, I’ve been able to witness arguably the greatest NFL team ever (the ’85 Bears), the greatest set of basketball teams ever (the ’90s Bulls dynasty), my baseball team crush the Curse of the Black Sox (the ’05 White Sox), an Illini berth in the national championship game (with the ’05 Elite Eight comeback game against Arizona that was the most unbelievable sports event that I have ever witnessed) and now a Stanley Cup. Heck, Illinois might retroactively win the Rose Bowl that I attended 2 years ago depending what sanctions get hammered on USC. Looking back, the Sports Gods have blessed me beyond belief. Plus, we’ve got many more years to enjoy Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews. Congrats Hawks!!!
Now, as for the latest on expansion:
Reports all over are confirming that Nebraska has been invited to the Big Ten, including the Chicago Tribune. Most of the regular readers of this blog established fairly early on that Nebraska would be the most likely school to be invited to the Big Ten and I’ve been getting info for awhile supporting that.
It can’t be that simple, though, right? If you’ve been following my Twitter feed (@frankthetank111), I had a brief interaction with @FakeJimDelany where he asked me whether I had bugged his phone, to which I replied, “I only get my info from Northwestern message boards.” Well, the Northwestern message boards put up another doozy of a rumor tonight: in addition to Nebraska, the Big Ten will be offering invites to Texas, Texas A&M, Notre Dame and Missouri. The Missouri invite, however, is contingent upon either Texas or Notre Dame accepting. Who knows how this is going to play out and whether the Big Ten would truly hand out invites (or more specifically, asking the candidates to fill out the applications for invites) without knowing whether the answer is yes, but I do know that the poster (who had written the infamous post that reportedly sent Jim Delany flying off the handle, was removed for a couple of weeks and is now back online) has a legit and direct connection to the Big Ten office. So, if this offer is true, the choice for Texas is what I laid out in yesterday’s “Double Chess” post: the comfortable Kia of the Pac-10 that won’t upset its Lone Star neighbors or the Rolls Royce of the new Big Ten.
Regardless, Chicago is the center of the sports world on multiple levels for the next few days. The Blackhawks are bringing the Cup home. Let’s see who Jim Delany ends up bringing over to Park Ridge.
(Follow Frank the Tank’s Slant on Twitter @frankthetank111)
(Image from Chicago Tribune)
FRANK THE TANK'S SLANT 
Congrats again, Frank!
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Congrats to the Blackhawks. At least it’s kept in the Central Division, and it’s good to see John Madden and Duncan Keith and Scotty Bowman and Marion Hossa get to hold the Cup.
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Congratulations to the Blackhawks, you all deserve it.
But equally important, I think, thank you for keeping the Flyer’s grubby paws off Stanley.
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add
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Glad to see the Blackhawks win that one, was a great series!
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Go Penguins!
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Congrats to BH nation. Can’t wait for Lidstrom & Co. to take it away.
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Congrats!
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Add
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Playoffs Now! put this up recently, lets see if anything happens. From Chip Brown’s twitter:
Nebraska and Texas officials are denying what Orangebloods.com is reporting. Let’s see how it plays out. I like our chances. 33 minutes ago via TweetDeck
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Chip has no inner knowledge of what is going on at Nebraska at all.
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And, Chip, it’s a bit late in the game to start trying to create some plausible deniability that you’ve been feed all this info by UT up until now.
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My reply to this on the previous thread:
In their defense, they are denying that a vote took place and that an invitation was extended. Can’t have a vote because it has to occur at the public meeting due to laws and the invitation will never happen as Nebraska has to apply, not be invited. I’m sure they have assurances, from the Big Ten that they’d be approved, though.
Also, Chip Brown was reporting that a vote took place while the conference call was still going on. So unless these regents are sending him secret IMs, he’s just pulling it out of nowhere. Remember, this is the guy that stated Missouri was a lock and Nebraska should be worried it would left out of the expansion last week. He has no contacts with Nebraska or the Big Ten, he initially was just inserting his own speculation about Nebraska and Missouri into the Pac-10 story, and now he is just regurgitating the same stuff that’s being reported by writers with actual connections like Teddy Greenstein and Lee Barfknecht and stuff that’s talked about on this board.
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It wasn’t even a full Regents meeting. It was an executive meeting with a few members of the board of regents to formally add the expansion topic to their public agenda (something that had to be done by noon central Thursday. And Yes, Chip reported they had voted to go to the Big 10 without A) legally being able to vote and B) while they were still on their conference call.
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Another day another full inbox
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So, seriously, are those of you who have been adding getting 1000+ emails a day? Is that how that works?
So, like, a couple of days ago, when I got lost in a tangent and was recalling my days of dating Rice girls, lots of you got that in an email?
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Yup. Thank God for Gmail and it’s “digest” format.
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Yes, much easier than going through the post. I have my favorite 5-10 posters that I read, and skim the others.
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For your sake, I hope I’m not one of them, otherwise you’re reading 100+ posts a day…
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lol, I am aware of you 100+ posts. Enjoy most of them too.
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I have some keywords I search for as well as all of Frank’s comments/insights.
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@HH:
Yep. Gmail thankfully presents the emails in aggregate, so it doesn’t take up pages and pages. But, still, spending the night packing for a move only to log in and see 600 message is painful.
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Oh, I think we’re in endgame now. I didn’t believe the NW board before and I don’t believe it now. The dreams of State College and East Lansing will remain, alas, mere dreams.
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Oh I agree. I’m already on the Maryland bandwagon.
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I’ve said it before and hate to be repetitive, but there are only two institutions that I know I want in the BT. They are NU & Pitt.
After that, I’ve seen compelling arguments/business reasonings made for several others including: UConn, MD, MU, ND, RU, SU, UT, TAMU & UVA. I’d be happy with some combination of them as #s 14-16, as long as Pitt & NU were two of the five invitees.
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Pass on Pitt, but add to my email inbox.
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Trying again?
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WordPress is annoying.
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Not sold one bit on Pitt. Would be a lackluster add IMO
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I do believe the fact that the Big Ten hasn’t finalized a Plan B. If ND, UT, and A&M join with NE, then it doesn’t matter who #16 is. There are probably too many variables to sort out to have a Plan B right now. Also, I do believe that the Big XII deadline did force The Big Ten’s hand, and the Nebraska invite would not have happened were it not for Dan Beebe.
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I’m not entirely so sure.
There are only really a couple of routes that the Big Ten can rationally follow if the focus is on ND and Texas the entire time.
Yes Plan A is to focus on Texas until the last moment, but Plan B is to create a plausible 16 team conference around Nebraska/ND.
You can easily accomplish that by looking east at Rutgers and possibly Maryland/VA or something else in the ACC if those teams are willing to move.
Admittedly, Plan B is as hard to pull of as Plan A due to the ACC being a stable conference.
But it’s not a horrible backup plan by any means. Losing Texas to the Pac-10 is a lost opportunity but it doesn’t mean demographics will destroy the Big Ten by any means. Removing the only BCS conference outside of the South/East is a huge deal for the Big Ten and Pac-10 brands…
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zeek,
Plan B including any of Maryland, UVA, UNC, Miami, Ga Tech, Vanderbilt…. I’m obviously guessing, but I don’t get the feeling that any of these schools have reached the point where The Big Ten has been told “we’re coming” as openly as Missouri, or as much as we assume that Rutgers or Pitt would jump at the chance. Also, some of these schools might only join conditionally. Maybe Miami only comes if Notre Dame joins.
That is why I don’t think the Plan B is etched in stone.
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I thought that Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, and Oklahoma State just pledged their loyalty to the Big Twelve last week. So 2 schools just left– Nebraska and Colorado. Find two new schools (perhaps Utah and BYU) and move on! Didn’t those schools just pledge to stay in the Big Twelve? Why is everyone saying that the Big Twelve is dead? If those schools move to the Pac 10, then they are hypocrites and look worse than Nebraska and Colorado. At least those schools were honest about their intentions.
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The impression I’m getting, from the A&M angle, is that all the leaks have been coming straight from Bellmont (it’s going to be painful for Chip Brown when he has Deloss’s hand pulled out of his ass), and that they’ve put together this Pac 10 package without much consultation with anyone else. The A&M camp is divided on which way to go, so this meeting tomorrow could be interesting. Do Deloss and Bill Powers turn on the charm, or do they lecture on the Aggies on this is how it’s going to be, and cause A&M to pull in the opposite direction?
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Do Deloss and Bill Powers turn on the charm, or do they lecture on the Aggies on this is how it’s going to be, and cause A&M to pull in the opposite direction?
Hilarious how many Aggies think in cartoons.
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Exhange MU for Pitt and that would be about as close to perfect as possible.
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Agreed.
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Bacon
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Grats, Frank. Makes me wish I had an NHL team to follow (still holding out for KC getting a team someday 😦 ).
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Bettman & Co are morons for trying to keep the Yotes in the desert. That’s never gonna work — bad arena situation, plus you can’t get loyalty when your fanbase thinks you could move within a year or two.
Let them go to KC or Seattle before the Memphis Grizzlies do.
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There’s something about Phoenix and hockey that just doesn’t make any sense. Seattle and KC would be great hockey cities.
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How bout this? Send them to Winnipeg?
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Does that mean they regain all rights to the ‘white out?’
And, is it just me, or does Philly’s orange crush make their arena look vacant? Reminds me of the old joke about fans showing up disguised as empty seats.
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Better yet, contract the Coyotes. There are too many teams in the NHL, and too much dilution of talent. KC cannot support the Royals or Chiefs without the whiny small market windfall of “revenue sharing”, and neither of them are competitive with the tens of $M they do get.
Seattle may be a better home, give the successes of the WCHL, but can they also support the NHL when they can barely support the Sonics???
Just contract the Coyotes and stop the madness that is/was galactically stupid NHL expansion below the Mason-Dixon line. NHL should focus on promoting the established franchises – like the ones that just finished a great Stanley Cup final with huge TV ratings increases – than continue the folly of expansion and expedient expansion “fees”. Its all fools gold, as it just dilutes the product and talent into markets that cannot support their teams year in-year out and the rest of the league fans could care less about them; markets which then whine for more “revenue sharing” and more special favors to stay competitive.
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Forgot to add that the NHL failed once already in KC, with the Scouts. No need to repeat history.
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10-4 dude. let’s see if Bettman wants to run the B12 for awhile.
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I’m in KC too, and these playoffs have been the first time I’ve watched any hockey since the early 90’s (last time the Hawks were good). I would definitely support a KC team- those arenas are NUTS during the playoffs!
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Here’s a puzzle for the lawyers out there:
The schools leaving the B12 will have to forfeit about $10 million each in 2010 TV money (I think that’s from ESPN). So, let’s say Mizzou makes it out (50-50) – that’s $80 million that could be split among the 4 rump schools, or $20 million each.
Now, it takes 9 votes to officially dissolve the B12. Assuming that none of the remaining 4 take a bribe to vote to dissolve (looking at you, Baylor), then the B12 will not be officially dissolved – only 8 votes are out there to do that. It occurs to me that the rump schools would not want to go to the MWC or CUSA – if they accepted invites to those conferences while the B12 is still in operation (until the end of the 2010-11 season), they might not be able to get the $20 million severance. Would that be the case?
If they forfeit the cash by accepting an invite within the next year, I doubt they go. You better believe the bankrupt Colorado program would make every effort and look for every loophole to keep its $10 million.
So, let’s say the B12 has to legally exist and the leftovers cannot accept invites for the next year. What do they do? The best move seems to be to invite teams from the MWC or CUSA to the B12 (or 8). The other possibility is a ‘reverse takeover’ by the MWC.
In that scenario, the question becomes: do the departing teams still get to vote on conference matters? If they do, then they would probably vote against inviting new schools in order to force a dissolution. After all, the remaining schools need to get a conference schedule for 2011 (unless they want to do a bunch of home-and-home games). If the departing schools lose their voting rights upon accepting an invite, then the leftovers can invite whoever they want and get a $20 million severance check.
If the leftovers can only get the $20 million each by keeping the B12 alive and are the only ones who get to decide on conference matters, then it seems likely that they will invite MWC/CUSA teams to come into the husk of the B12 – KU, KSU, BU, and ISU would then stick together. That would be an attractive option for MWC and CUSA teams – prospective entrants might even get a little financial inducement. The B12 would survive (at least in name – or maybe it would revert to the B8) and might have enough decent teams to hold onto its BCS bid.
Any lawyers out there know if the above scenario is plausible?
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There is conflicting information on whether or not dissolution is the super majority 9 or or simple majority 7 (6 if Nebraska is already gone). I personally still think it is the simple majority per Delaware Corporate Law as the Big XII bylaws don’t contain an overriding dissolution provision.
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I think I read the 9 votes bit on ESPN, but could be wrong.
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No you read it right, there are just conflicting reports on what is accurate. The Big 12 requires 9 votes for most decisions, but it doesn’t specify 9 votes for dissolution in its bylaws, which potentially opens the door for a simple majority dissolution of 7 (6 if the Huskers have left).
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Is Nebraska really gone?
Do you think that acceptance of an invitation from another conference constitutes a legally-defined departure?
Or is the departure the date of the last game played in the B12 — i.e. the last activity that will occur within the structure of the B12?
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When VT and Miami accepted invitations to the ACC in the summer of 2003, they remained official Big East members until 6/30/04. The next day they were officially in the ACC. Same story for BC, except they became members on 7/1/05.
Best guess is that it would work the same for the Big 12.
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While you’re right that in theory they could stay and vote as long as they don’t leave the conference in some sense, I doubt we’d see that happen.
Maybe they’ll all cut deals so that they can join the Pac-10 in a year.
But more likely, they’ll let those 4 teams remaining decide on schools to invite into their fold. I don’t see them trying to shaft them more than they already will be affected negatively by all of this. Then we could see politicians jump all over this much more than they already are, and it would turn into a public relations nightmare.
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There’s $10 million per school at stake. If there’s a chance to save some of that cash, I can’t imagine all 8 just walk away — could be a negotiation.
Everyone is taking some kind of PR hit — it’ll all be white noise soon.
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But if a simple majority can dissolve the conference and the supermajority is needed to waive exit fees, it seems that they would want to come to agreement to keep the conference, waive the fees and bring on new members to maintain AQ status. OTOH if AQ status is given to the top six conferences, without the b12 I believe the mwc would automatically become AQ.
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That’s going to be the interesting thing to watch if the Big 12 is left with 4 teams. I tend to think your point on starting Pac-10 play in a year is the most likely scenario. It also kills a lot of the money teams might owe, because as I understand, you forfeit 50% of the league revenue, but there is no revenue if the teams are all playing elsewhere.
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The drop-dead date for 50% was June 1 (I believe). At this point, I think the forfeiture is 80%.
The forfeiture is for TV money that will be paid for the upcoming season. So, the 7-8 departing teams essentially play for 20 cents on the dollar this season.
I am guessing the TV contract is then canceled for 2011-12. Lawyers agree or disagree?
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I don’t know that we’ve established exactly what conference dissolution rules are — they’re not stated in the bylaws ( http://www.big12sports.com/fls/10410/pdfs/handbook/Bylaws.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=10410 ), and one would have to access the Delaware Article of Incorporation for the Big 12. I’m sure someone in the press is going to pony up for a copy Real Soon Now.
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If 9 is still required, the chump schools get the cash. Nebraska and the B12South are in breach as soon as they officially join another conference (or leave the B12). The Chumps could stick around just long enough to collect the cash and informally accept invite to another conf.
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I highly doubt it will happen that way. First, the departing supermajority will figure out a way to get it done legally without having to forfeit all of that money. Second, I’m pretty sure that the four can’t remain a “conference” under NCAA rules for a long enough period of time to collect on the payments.
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NCAA rules don’t seem applicable. I believe from a legal standpoint, the B12 is a non-profit corporation / association with rules and bylaws. It is still a legal entity. There are still contracts. What do the courts care if there are 4 or 12 members?
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Delaware Corporation all the way.
I think it is highly possible that Nebraska and the six new Pac-10 members will vote to officially dissolve the Big 12 next week, before any of them sign any papers related to joining the Big Ten or the Pac-10.
The Big Twelve could cease to be a conference before the fiscal year end date of June 30 and Nebraska could be playing @Iowa on October 2, 2010. Is it really that big a deal to re-release the Big Ten and Pac-16 schedules on July 1 for games that won’t take place until three full months later?
I see no reason to sacrifice a $10 million exit fee, an 80% reduction in Big 12 TV revenue from a year of conference play no one wants to be involved in, and a potential $30 million first year payout from the Big Ten voluntarily. Tell the four or five left-behinds that they’re going to get nothing and like it, and then fight the lawsuits in the courts just like Boston College and the ACC did in 2003.
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well said.
if 7-8 of your members are leaving for other conferences, those 7-8 vote to change whatever rules need to be changed to avoid whatever needs to be avoided.
I’d add the thought that, maybe for PR and to smooth some hard feelings, the 7-8 DO offer the remaining 4 something in terms of $$.
But, your last sentence hits the right note; if you can’t buy out the remaining four, then say “you get nothing” and just deal with the litigation.
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Dang, I’m really torn on this. Love the P16 idea, even if the Agghats go to the SEC (we’ll just plug in UH or KS or Utah.) Better road trips, hipper, a more natural fit, Sun N’ Fun. The best chance at getting true symmetry in college football: 4 or 5 16-team conferences. If TX goes B10+, it is virtually impossible for the P10 to get to 16, so we’d forever be stuck with unbalanced conferences and a higher risk of not getting any kind of playoff.
OTOH, love the unsurpassed academic heft of a conference with 15 AAU members. Love playing ND every year. But really bleh with MO being the 16th. Far better to get GT or Vandy instead. Each only a 10-20 minutes further plane ride than Columbia, about the same as Lincoln. Each would be a great fan trip, both are academic stars, and Vandy would be a great shot across the SEC’s bow. Yeah, the SEC types would try and blow it off as improving their football SOS, but it still would send a huge message of “You’re academically 2nd-tier.” Thus Vandy or GT would be a more sexy addition.
TX and aTm to the B10+ guarantees there will be at least 5 BCS conferences, and perhaps doesn’t kill the B12. A reloading B12 paves the way for schools like TCU, UH, Utah, BYU, and maybe even SMU to move up to a BCS AQ conference. OTOH, the BEast may well survive while Boise could be stuck on the outside. 6+ BCS conferences could actually work against creating a bowl-based playoff, because there may not be enough wildcards to satisfy the power conferences.
With a P16 there’s a risk of going to 4×16 and leaving too many schools out, but that’s so politically risky that we’d probably see a 5th leftover super conference to mop things up. 5 conf champs and 3 wildcards is perfect for feeding 4 BCS bowls, (since the P16 and B10+ would share the Rose.) Even if the ACC didn’t go to 16, we’d still probably end up with 5 power conferences. And that could trigger an early
renegotiation of the BCS contract, so a good shot at just 2 more years without a playoff.
Wow, I’m near flip a coin territory, but leaning P16 in preference. I guess either way there’s plenty to be happy about. I expect the P16 invites will be accepted.
BTW, if the Ags screw this up and go to the SEC, hopefully the legislators force them to take Baylor with ’em!
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A&M to the SEC doesn’t screw anything up and it still has a real chance of happening. UT will just have to deal with it.
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who? ut? who dat, ag?
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You guys have a tough time when Ags don’t conform to your stereotypes.
Glen – UT is that university in Austin who has recently discovered it does not hold all the cards in this little expansion game currently being played.
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“Don’t give yourself airs, Aggie.”
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You seem frantic now..
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I might be wrong, but isn’t the legislature okay if Texas and A&M split, so long as both are headed to healthy conferences?
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That was my impression as well. I thought Texas did not want A&M to go to the SEC because that would give them some recruiting momentum. Texas would prefer A&M close and mediocre for their own recruiting purposes.
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I might be wrong, but isn’t the legislature okay if Texas and A&M split, so long as both are headed to healthy conferences?
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Probably, though the governor wants them to stick together. Could also be an attempt to force TX to the SEC with aTm. Screw that.
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The best solution to the penalty and dissolution problem is to let A&M go to the SEC, freeing up another slot in the Pac 10 for Kansas. If Mizzou gets a Big Ten invite, then you have 9 of the Big XII member voting to dissolve. Only K-State, Iowa State, and Baylor are left.
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The rumor mill is is now saying the governor of Texas, who is an A&M grad but sucks up royally to the school in Austin, is trying to keep the band together. That includes the Baptists on the Brazos. The meeting this afternoon may become a “Come to Jesus” meeting, or end with a whimper. Former coach at A&M and Alabama, as well as current regent at A&M, Gene Stallings is pushing for A&M to ditch the others and go to the SEC.
The problem arises with the politicians holding back funds, earmarked as academic, associated with the oil business to both the A&M and Texas schools. Will either Texas or A&M want to upset the politicians by losing out on academic monies? The ultimate decision making is to convoluted and there are ramifications if someone were to feel jilted.
Texas will not be shoe-horned into the SEC. They have made that perfectly clear.
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Take OU with you….um…but we’ll have to bring our kid brother along is that ok? I’ mean he’s not a bad kid really
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FtT,
Congrats to you & your ‘Hawks. Alas, my Blues aren’t going to contend for the Cup any time soon. Have some champagne for me!
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Also, congratulations to JQ. I wasn’t happy when the Blues let him go. I’m happy he was able to win the Cup.
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Off-Topic *BREAKING NEWS*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://bit.ly/9YXMNa3
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“The USC football program will receive two-year postseason ban, a reduction in scholarships and a forfeiture of wins from at least the 2004 season when the NCAA releases it sanctions on Thursday, a source told ESPN’s Shelley Smith.”
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If only USC didn’t have such a huge cloud over it, the Pac-10 may not have been as willing to give the store away to Texas and co., and we may have seen a Big Ten endgame.
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As a Pens fan since ’88 (when i was 11 yrs old) I was so fucking pumped when they won the Cup last year. It had felt like they hadn’t won it in decades even though it had been a (relatively) short 18 years.
I can’t imagine how great it must feel to win one, as an original 6 franchise, after 49 years of waiting.
Congrats to the ‘hawks, their fans, and the great city of Chicago. Soak it in and enjoy the next few months. You’ve just won the greatest trophy in all of sports.
Oh, and good luck dealing with the salary cap…maybe trade a skilled winger to the Penguins for next to nothing???
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I guess now that the Pac-10 have gone “public” with their invitation, the Big 10 may have to go public as well to level the playing field. I’m sure the Pac10 seems like the natural fit for the entire B12South (sans Baylor) for the majority of folks. Plus, B12S to the P10 has ruled the airwaves for the last 48hrs. If the B10 wants a fair shake in the court of public opinion, they need to go public. Then at least they’ve got a shot of changing the discussion from
B12S to P10 v. Status Quo
to
CIC for UT v. No CIC for UT?
Would a public conversation about Research $$s be enough to break the Tech shackles?
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go hawks!!!!!
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@greg,
Agreed!
Now, Iowa can play NU as their regular season-ender and leave MN for WI.
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I’m looking forward to seeing things like this happen on a regular basis.
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i don’t think crouch has eligibility remaining. how old was pelini in ’99? : )
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Linebackers coach with the New England Patriots in ’99.
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Brought over from the other thread, because it mirrors what the B10+ has been discussing (reconfirmed tonight in Teddy Greenstein’s article):
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5270048
…The coach said it’s possible the Pac-16 would push for two automatic bids to the BCS, one for each division champion. That potential bonanza could open the possibility of the two division champs from one league playing for the national title, and it would eliminate the need for a conference championship game.
“The Pac-10 doesn’t believe in a championship game,” the coach said. “And coaches in the Big 12 don’t like it anyway.”
In one sense you could say TX would be going from a 12 school conference to a de facto 8 school one. However it still would require playing 9 conference games to get the BCS bid, just as now.
Might this suggest that we’d see one or more bowls added to the BCS?
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The Cotton Bowl (played in the Deathstar, aka JerryWorld) will be a BCS bowl in the very near future.
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Cotton Bowl for sure. I don’t know what would come after that. Capital One Bowl, maybe? Though, I’d they’d force them to start calling it the Capital One Florida Citrus Bowl again or just drop “Florida” from it.
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I can’t see any of the other BCS AQ conferences agreeing to this. It puts them at an immediate and significant disadvantage in terms of grabbing BCS bowling
dollars.
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hmm… that would sadden me if the P16 and B16 eschew their respective conference champ games; with 16, the cross divisional games are few and far between. TX plays @ Washington once a decade, IIRC other posts and posters who actually did the “math.”
So, my Buckeyes wouldnt get to play Big Red very often. and even less often without the champ. game. (grin)
so, to that idea: BOO HISS!
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yay hockey is over (for like 2 weeks)
scrapple
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Dear Big Ten: Roll out the red carpet for the Big Red
By Dennis Dodd
CBSSports.com Senior Writer
Nebraska’s history is filled with legendary players such as quarterback Tommy Frazier.
They’re special, Jim, so be kind. In fact, a red carpet of some kind wouldn’t be considered over the top.
They are the Big Red. The only Big Red that matters. Nebraska. A program that forged its reputation playing walk-ons from the state’s cornfields. It was recruiting New Jersey before Rutgers had a clue. At one time, its coaches used to know California better than The Governator.
It is a national program with incredibly deep local roots so be gentle, Jim, because Nebraska football isn’t a “brand” or “inventory” as you like to call the games you sell to networks. Nebraska football isn’t just something to fill air time on the Big Ten Network. It is a culture. It is brawn. It is Outlands, Heismans.
It is the Great Plains version of Michigan — with its pride still intact.
Now it’s all yours, Jim. Don’t mess it up. Don’t make Nebraska football into … Purdue, something lost in the haze of a 16-team conference. I’m talking to you, Jim Delany. This is on you, the Big Ten commissioner. You didn’t just invite a school or a team or a program. You invited a state, its people, its past, its future, its ethic.
You invited 45 percent of Notre Dame Stadium. That’s the percentage of red that showed up in the Irish’s football shrine when the teams met in 2000. You invited one half of the Game of the Century. You invited those thousands of balloons that are released into the Lincoln sky after the home team’s first touchdown. You invited Devaney, Osborne, Gill, Rozier, Alberts, Wistrom and Suh.
You invited the Corn Belt to the Rust Belt. Will the fit be more comfortable than Nebraska’s long-distance relationship with Texas? We’ll see. Nebraska AD/legend Tom Osborne didn’t want to leave the Big 12. He really didn’t. Nebraska would have been fine staying in the conference if Texas hadn’t taken over the league in everything from academics to finances.
Once Texas issued that “ultimatum” last week, it was over. Nebraska knew it couldn’t go back to a league where one of the members was issuing deadlines.
It is sad because the Huskers have played members of the old Big Eight for a century. It usually beat the hell out of Missouri, Kansas and Kansas State but that’s beside the point. Back then, they were all partners who genuinely liked each other. Now a school like Kansas suddenly finds itself reduced to second-class citizen status. At least KU has basketball to perhaps save it. Where is Kansas State going to end up?
Where is Kansas City going to end up? If the dominoes topple as projected, the ancestral home of the Big Eight/Big 12 is diminished. The city hosted multiple Big Eight/Big 12 tournaments and those leagues’ championship games. The city built the Sprint Center just so the Big 12 wouldn’t move the basketball tournament. Now what does it do? Nebraska’s in the Big Ten, Missouri might be headed there. Iowa State will end up in the Mountain West, if it’s lucky.
It’s all collateral damage and it’s only the beginning. The way it looks, Jim, this isn’t going to be expansion, it’s going to be waterboarding for the affected fans. Nebraska today, Notre Dame tomorrow, Syracuse on Monday. It’s all so torturous and tawdry.
Nebraska is not a domino to be tipped over, Jim, it is a tradition. Before there was Tim Tebow, there was Tommie Frazier. Florida State and Miami showed Osborne and Huskers how to win during a series of beatdowns in the 1980s and 1990s. Osborne calmly took the knowledge, retooled and ended his coaching career with a flourish — winning three out of four national championships.
Will it happen in the Big Ten? That’s a key question. With 14 or 16 teams, there is the danger that Nebraska will become Purdue, a middling program with a diminished pedigree. Nebraska is at a tenuous point in its history. Football is strong, but not back — not all the way. How will that comeback be affected by a Big Ten schedule?
Or does matter? Twenty million per year is 20 million for Big Ten schools. The figure reportedly will double in coming years if Delany does this expansion right. If not? Well, there is a chance that Nebraska will never be itself again. For all its greatness, the program does not have a recruiting base. The hire of Bill Callahan showed just how close Nebraska could be to ruin.
Now it is changing everything. Without Nebraska football, the state would be a slightly warmer South Dakota. With Nebraska football, the Big Ten has inherited a jewel that had better not be damaged.
These are humble, proud people who have created their own “brand.” That goofy overalled mascot who roams the sidelines might be a stereotype but so is Osborne. He is a solid rock of a man who, for better or worse, has gotten to Nebraska to this point. It might be the high point of the school’s history. Nebraska certainly is going to make money and make history, but it’s also going to lose part of itself.
So when you officially admit Nebraska into the Big Ten, Jim, avert your eye from the bottom line for a second. The Huskers’ decision didn’t come lightly. Osborne probably told you at some point that Nebraska liked the Big 12 — it loved the Big Eight even more. This Big Ten is going to take some getting used to.
All those great Oklahoma games? Relegated to the media guide for good unless the Sooners agree to a non-conference matchup.
All those Orange Bowls? Thank God for DVDs.
All those dollars? Nebraska just couldn’t say no.
We ask just one thing, Jim. Treat them right. Roll out the red carpet for the Big Red. They’re special.
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Hoffa, try to refrain from posting entire news articles or columns on here Especially when you don’t link back to the site it was pulled from. It’s not exactly fair to writers or the company that pays them.
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Ha. I tried telling someone else that once before and got slapped with “FAIR USE!!!” excuses.
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It won’t be long until Bruce Weber coaches the Fighting Illini to the national title. Depending how well Jereme Richmond plays it may be sooner than you think. Two extra basketball victories over the Huskers a year should pad the conference resume.
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@Chas. – I’m completely pumped for Richmond and the class coming in – we’re going to be extremely good next season.
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Don’t write them off completely. We’ve surprised Kansas once or twice in the past 10 years or so. 😉
In all seriousness, they are building a brand new arena in Lincoln, so there are going to be higher expectation with the basketball program in the coming years. If we have to bring in a more expensive coach, then so be it. We will be getting 20+ million a year soon. 😀
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I did read that NU’s pending new 16,000 arena may have helped them with the B10. New arenas = instant success — just ask Penn State.
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One downfall of the move for the Huskers is in basketball. I am frustrated beyond beleif on how piss poor the basketball team is year in and year out.
I guess now there will be a rivalry with Northwestern to see who is the first team to win a NCAA tourney game. Although at least Nebraska has made 5 tournaments.
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Fair to say that Delaney is a man of his word. Any thoughts on when he informed Beebe of the Big Red invite?
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Monday morning, when the plane with Osborne left Chicago.
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Thank you, Rocky Wirzt, this one was a long time in coming!
(Yes, I’m a Blackhawks fan. I’m from Pennsylvania, but I’ve lived in Chicagoland since 1996.)
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1000 by dawn.
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~200-300, but I’d bet it’s 1500+ tomorrow night. Friday will be insane during the regent meeting and subsequent press conference.
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Strap yourselves in: behind the scenes talks between A&M and the SEC…
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/andy_staples/06/10/aggies.options/index.html
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Looks like the SEC wants to bust this party wide open.
The problem is that Texas has the Aggie gov on their side. That looks to be almost insurmountable, especially if Dodds and co. push the screws in tomorrow at a meeting to get them on the same page (i.e. Texas’ page).
The SEC needs to make a hard play at OU/OSU. They’re the easiest picked off, not A&M, although A&M is key to breaking the deal apart.
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So many moving parts left to be resolved.
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Zeek –
Does’t A&M talking with the SEC work in the B10’s favor?
Is this a possible conversation:
A&M: I don’t wanna go to the Pac10.
Texas: I don’t want you in the SEC.
A&M: So, where can we go that makes us both happy?
Texas: How about the B10.
Just wondering.
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@crpodhaj – I had thought that before, too. Maybe Texas loves the Pac-10 proposal but hates the SEC, whereas A&M is the opposite. However, both of them possibly like the Big Ten well enough where that’s the one place that they can both agree upon as a mutual neighborhood (and the financial estimates for adding the BTN onto basic cable in Texas probably make them like it a whole lot more).
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Frank: given that Delany went bonkers over the NW board leak from someone in his office and that he probably read the riot act to staff, do you actually believe that same leak person is blabbing away again risking Delany’s wrath again and putting their job in jeopardy? If so what an idiot.
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@Rick,
This time it´s in the Big 10´s best interest for an invite to be made public. Given the fact that that guy disappeared for the last few weeks, tells me that this latest information isn´t as sensitive.
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I don’t buy that. I don’t think Delany lets staff know what is sensitive and what is not. I think if he in fact did go bonkers at staff he told them in no uncertain terms that they should STFU and that any and all leaks would be planted by him alone or via a proxy. I doubt that this NW lead was by Delany thru the same guy as the first time as his proxy. Another leak to the NW board from a big mouth staffer sanctioned by Delany doesn’t sound credible or likely to me. Either that or Delany runs a loose ship or in fact the leaker is an idiot like I said.
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What are the odds that the guy that posted that stuff got fired after an internal investigation and now feels justified in posting again?
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I agree with you and Frank on this.
If A&M really is pushing against the Pac-10 solution, then perhaps the Big Ten can come in as a compromise. But I think the Big Ten would need to be more proactive to set itself up like that.
And you’d need Powers and co. to be willing to suggest that as a compromise.
But yea, the conversation would go as you say.
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Zeek
The Aggie gov is a politician so he needs the perception to be one that does not jeopardize his election. However he is also going to maximize this opportunity for A&M. He isn’t on-board with Dodds by any stretch of the imagination. The SEC option is still very much in play.
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Very interesting that Texas is meeting with A/M only and not with “problem” Texas Tech.
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Not so fast. Both Baylor and Texas Tech have been invited to sit on the meeting. Great, lets keep the band together (rolling eyes).
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That was bad info. Apparently UT and aTm are meeting alone. And they’ll then tell TT and Baylor what they decided.
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Chip Brown has justed reported in the last hour that A&M and Texas will have a meeting, and then tell Tech and Baylor of what the plan is.
According the news/rumors from this morning and not from the Minister of Information, the four schools were to hold a meeting with their representatives and a few politicians. It was thought, at least from the Aggie POV, to take a look at our cards in this poker game.
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It turns out the earlier report of Tech and Baylor to the meeting were incorrect. Reports by Austin American-Statesman and a guy from Lubbock’s ESPN radio are saying the meeting is to see what A&M is thinking about the SEC.
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I think this is a big fly in the ointment of Texas’ flight to the West Coast–A&M doesn’t want to go. Now that’s not an insurmountable obstacle–the Pac 10 wants the Longhorns and the Aggies are just a nice side benefit. But I can’t see the Pac 10 going to 14 schools. If TAMU goes elsewhere, then either only UT and TTU go west, or they have to take Utah to replace them.
Or TAMU could just be talked into the Pac16. Probably the most likely option, but if the SEC is really on the table, they’d have to consider it.
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What’s wrong if every conference stops at 14? scheduling is easier (that is, a extra cross-divisional game per season for everyone); it’s an incremental change and everyone can really find out how difficult 14 is before everyone commits to the 16 school model. the 16 team conferences created so far have failed. that’s not good history.
so, let’s see how 14 works. 14 may be stable in a way that 16 is not.
just some thoughts.
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I’ve got no problem with a conference at 14, but for the Pac whatever, it provides a major scheduling headache. None of the current ten schools would agree to go to a different division without their instate, or cross-metro area, rival. The only way would be to split the Pac 14 down the middle with USC and UCLA (and all the pairs) in separate divisions and with a protected, cross-divisional, rival. But then there would be years where the Washington and Oregon schools would not get to play a game in Southern California, which everyone around here thinks is a non-starter to them because of recruiting and alumni issues.
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oh, and 14 can still lead to viable playoff ideas and means more conferences (so fewer “orphans” and less chance of political meddling).
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Let’s have the Texas legislature make Baylor A&M’s baggage if they’re going SEC. I’d take UT and Tech vs. the other combo any day of the week.
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In regards to those left behind from the Big12, there is always the MWC. TCU has done well for itself in that league when the SWC split in the mid-90’s.
The addition of the Bears could kill any offer A&M were to receive from the SEC. If A&M were to bolt for the SEC, the Bears are more than welcome to their slot in the new super-PAC, but suspect Kansas would be targeted if they would drop KSU.
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Quick scenario question: If aTm truely wants no part of the Pac – and UT truely wants not part of the SEC – and UT truely has to take Tech with them (therfore ruling out the B10).
How likeley is it that A) TX legislators let them go their separate ways (which has been mentioned as a possibility earlier in the game). B) Can UT and TT carry the state (including Hou market) from a cable subscription standpoint (combining with OU?)?
If the answer is yes to both – than the Pac should keep the train moving to 16 with Utah or KS in its place (I know KS has mentioned they are tied to KSt but they would have to seriously consider ditching them to ensure a spot at the tier 1 BCS table).
Pure speculation on my part but aTm just wants no part of the Pac (through their public comments) and feels more at home with the SEC (and they are no doubt a better culture fit there) but it seems like OU would be ok with either (Pac or SEC) – true or not from OU fans – is there a preference?
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I don’t think the Texas legislature would prevent UT and A&M from separating if they both wanted to do so and had good places to go, though it could be more complicated if it seems Tech could get left out.
UT alone would carry the state for cable for whatever league it’s in.
As an OU guy, I’m somewhat inclined toward the P16 — so long as Texas is in the P16 — as that keeps OU playing in our primary recruiting areas, in which loads of OU alums also live, and playing our biggest rival in-conference. If A&M were to head for the SEC, that would make things more interesting.
Going to the SEC would be loads of fun, too.
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If A&M wants to go to the SEC and Texas wants to go to the PAC-10, why wouldn’t the PAC-10 just take Colorado and UT and stop at 12?
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Because if UT is going to the Pac over B10 it will only be because of the need to bring TT with them. At least that is my understanding….
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Frank loving all this and congrats on the Hawks. Spent a summer in Chicago and loved it. Now on to this night’s events.
aTm and UT have a Tech/Baylor problem. While it may seem easier to leave Baylor behind it may even be easier politically to leave both. Why? As I have pointed out, you nuke the conference in the Pac-10 scenario and set Baylor outside.
For those who remember these things, it wasn’t Ann Richards, it was Bob Bullock – the de facto power in the Texas Legislature as Lieutenant Governor that got Baylor into the B12. While Richards helped, Bullock was the man strong arming left and right. There is a reason his name is on one of the libraries at Baylor.
One interesting development in all this is probably the emergence of David Sibley as State Senate candidate again, currently running in a special election for his old vacated seat. Sibley represented Waco and surrounding counties for about a decade, retired and went into lobbying. Before he left he was very influential member of the Senate, and overlapped during the SWC upheaval and Bullock, and coincidentally a very big Baylor alum who I believe sat on Baylor’s regent board for a time.
Sibley in a State Senate seat could make things very unpleasant if Baylor gets too much of shaft.
(Yes, I know way too much about the area, grew up there, my grandparents still live there, and grandfather was best friends with one of the country commissioners).
Politics in this entire scenario are just oozing, I would love to be a fly on the wall at that ranch tomorrow.
My best advice: aTm and UT go to the B10. Whether you bring Tech or Baylor if you can’t bring both – bring neither. Tech has just as, if not more juice then Baylor. aTm and UT will catch the same crap either way if they can’t take both so make your best deal or do a Texas 4-Pack to the SEC.
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@Hangtime79 – I was actually thinking about that where it might actually make more political sense to leave both Texas Tech and Baylor behind than just Baylor. That’s because if that were to happen, the Pac-10 doesn’t expand to a superconference and the Big XII survives with at least Oklahoma as a headliner. This keeps both Baylor and Texas Tech in the BCS club and there’s an added bonus that TCU and/or Houston might move up to that level, too. That’s the political compromise that I’d be pushing if I were UT and A&M (if, in fact, they actually do want to ditch the other Texas schools).
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How credible would that be though if within a minute the SEC sends invites to Oklahoma/OSU?
Either way you get a political firestorm about Tech being left behind in a gutted league…
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One thing Frank, is there any interest at all at A&M for a Big Ten invite?
We keep talking about the potential fit of A&M, but the AD is firmly in charge and Aggie watchers have indicated that he’s likely to get his way.
Does that mean the Big Ten has no shot or behind the scenes has sent signals it would take A&M or what?
It’s just impossible to get a read on whether there’s any movement at all for A&M to the Big Ten, if at all.
Byrne seems to be 100% control of this bus, which means that it’s the Pac-10 or SEC unless Texas wants to drag them North…
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I think the A&M folks find a Big 10 offer interesting, but the politics of leaving Tech would make it difficult. As long as Texas takes Tech with them to the Pac 10, A&M can probably go wherever it wants. However, it seems that the leadership at A&M is leaning Pac 10 (which will not go over well with many former students).
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No chance zeek. No reason for the SEC to bring OU/OK State. You get OKC and Tulsa as a market, but there is no Texas, no natural rivalries. OU while a historically powerful school it isn’t always been let I remind you of the years between Switzer and Stoopes. While it would be great to get these two with aTm, I guarantee you the rest of the SEC would rather stand pat then divide the pie further while receiving just the 45th and 61st media markets (OKC, Tulsa).
aTm and Texas will get a s**t storm either way so why not take your best offer?
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I’m not sure that OU and OSU are non-starters for SEC expansion even without UT and A&M. Putting Tech into the mix would help assure that the SEC has prime access to Texas TV, as OU, Arkansas and LSU already feed loads of grads and other followers to Texas.
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i think dodds wants to leave a legacy. there is no finer accomplishment that he could leave his name on than giving texas its freedom.
another thing. whenever you buzzards are told that texans believe in earning their keep and not accepting things they haven’t deserved, ask them what states tech and baylor hail from, because it sure couldn’t be texas.
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That’s one of the more underrated narratives.
Look at the Florida/FSU/Miami situation for how all three developed identities in different conferences, etc.
Texas already has its own identity, but A&M especially could really want to become its own brand. The SEC would have it as its “Texas” in a sense, which could have the same effect on it becoming a national brand if it becomes competitive in the SEC as say FSU (of course FSU v UF is a different kind of relationship of history/tradition, etc.).
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Could not agree more Frank and I think that will be part of the calculus today. However, one part has to remain – aTm and UT have to be joined at the hip. While B10 wouldn’t make a play on OU, SEC defintely would. I think SEC would take aTm, OU, and OK State + one someone from the ACC or BE, but they are not taking OU and OK State alone. That does not accomplish what the SEC wants (entre to Texas).
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OU and OSU…really does help you get Dallas
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In regards to the forgotten 4.
How about K-State, KU, Mizzou and ISU join with the 8 Big East football teams to make a conference? People forget that K-State was a power until 2003 in FB (2 BCS games, 1 Big 12 title). Obviously, the basketball would be insane.
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That would necessitate a catholic/football split first, of course. But I’d be in favor of it.
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How many voted do the Big East need for expansion?
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It wouldn’t be a Big East expansion, it would be a split between the football and non-football schools. I believe they have a period where a bunch of the basketball $$$ was held in escrow to keep the football teams from leaving which ends this summer.
Big East football fans would love matching the four Big 12 leftovers in a 6 team division with Cinn and Lville.
They may be the scraps of the Big 12, but they are much better options than Memphis, ECU, etc.
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Amen to that.
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I think it’s more likely than one initially realizes. The jilted Big 12 schools are gonna want to go to an AQ conference – now. And it arguably makes the Big East a stronger conference. It becomes a Big Ten lite (same geographic footprint)
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K-State a football power? Are you serious?!? Until Snyder got there, K-State was historically the worst team in a major conference in America. The only success the Wildcats have ever had was with Snyder at the helm.
Still, you raise an excellent point. I don’t know how much juice the football programs have vs. the basketball teams at Syracuse and UCONN to force the issue. I don’t know if the others would walk out on the basketball conference to add the BXII-leftovers. I don’t know how much more the extra travel will be.
This is a good idea for later if the ACC and SEC get expansionistic and the Big East needs to reload.
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The football schools at the big east would walk out tomorrow on the basketball-only schools to form a conference with Big 12 leftovers.
I would venture to guess that Iowa State’s football program probably brings double the revenue to the table than does the highest-grossing basketball-only school.
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What is it now, week 3 of the Mizzou suicide watch?
Preface: They could still get in the B10 – maybe soon. But …
Has any school fallen further faster in this whole goat rodeo? There’s the (slim) possibility they could be an independent for 2011-12. Catastrophe.
What are the scenarios left? Let’s accept that the ‘Texas 6’ go to the PAC-10; NU to B10; and the SEC is not interested in them. Then it’s B10 or bust.
The B10 could:
1)Stop at NU (remote chance)
2)Add ND plus one of the usual suspects that aren’t Mizzou. (more likely)
3)Add ND plus three of the usual suspects that aren’t Mizzou. (also reasonable)
4)Just add ND (remote chance)
5)Add 2-4 of the usual suspects that aren’t Mizzou. (not too likely)
6)Decide they like Kansas more than Mizzou. (brutal turn of events)
I will grant you that #1, 4, 5, 6 are not very likely – but they are plausible. Put those scenarios together and are you at a greater than 50% likelihood that Mizzou is screwed?
What happens to them if they’re left out? Schools have got to know within the next few months where they’re going to be so that a 2011-12 schedule can be made up. Let’s say the B12 dissolves (my earlier post notwithstanding), who wants Mizzou? Will any conference take them knowing that they’re just waiting for a B10 invite? If a B10 invite doesn’t come before fall, what are they going to do about 2011? KU, KSU, BU, and ISU will be looking for permanent homes and don’t have any realistic hopes of a B10/P16/ACC/SEC membership (KU might have an outside chance at SEC). So, MWC and CUSA could be comfortable with any or all of them. BEast is a very remote possibility for the Kansas schools.
Do MWC or CUSA want to let Mizzou slum around for 1-2 years? Not without a big pricetag.
So, consider this scenario:
B10 keeps evaluating and talking to ND through the summer. The window has passed to get any of the BEast teams into the B10 for the 2012 season (27 month departure clause), so there’s little pressure to move on Rutgers. Clock ticks. 2011 will have just a 12-team B10. KU, KSU, ISU, BU and Boise State get invites from the MWC. Mizzou is left high and dry for 2011. Can they even fill out a schedule? What about B Ball? Games in January and February against NJIT and A&M-Corpus Christi. Even if Mizzou gets an invite for the 2012 season, how much does a lost season set them back?
And here’s the last big thing: with NU, the B10 is at 12. Are they going to 13 for Mizzou? Doubt it. The 27 month separation clause precludes pairing them with a B East team. So, if the B10 will only now go up in increments of 2, only the arrival of ND will allow Mizzou to get in for the 2011 season (unless an ACC team can be poached).
Hide the razor blades.
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I should amend my post. I suppose if they get into a conference, there are ready-made games and most of the OOC is in shape. So, maybe they have a few more months grace. But every day that goes by with them in limbo is troubling.
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As you point out, I don’t think the Big Ten goes to 13 for Missouri or Rutgers because no one seems to have interest in taking them off the board. When that changes, the Big Ten stance may change towards them.
I think the school to watch is Maryland if the Pac-16 materializes. Delany is undoubtably going to go for hard to get schools and then pair them off with Rutgers or Mizz, etc.
He’s going to have a list of targets that are hard to nail down (topped by ND as always), but the targets will likely be paired off with easy gets if the targets don’t come with a pair (i.e. Maryland/Virginia).
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I would point out though, that Missouri has a big disadvantage in that the only good pairing it has is Texas/A&M (for a pod or regionality situation or whatever).
Rutgers on the other hand pairs extremely well with ND or Maryland or other Eastern scenarios that the Big Ten presidents may want to focus on with Texas off the table.
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This is where the plodding pace of the B10 is maddening and shortsighted. As much as I am entertained by Mizzou’s troubles (mostly b/c I think they have been incredibly incompetent through this whole process), the fact is they might get into the B10. Yet the B10 (so far) is leaving them hanging. They knew about the ‘Tech’ problem for weeks and dithered. So, Texas et al got sick of it and jumped. Texas has/had options, Mizzou has almost none.
They only moved on NU quickly b/c NU had options and forced them into it. Now a prospective member is stuck in a humiliating limbo. That is a fundamental lack of respect for not just a prospective member, but a fellow AAU member, colleagues, etc. The B10 is crapping all over them simply b/c they (Mizzou) has no options.
Maybe the B10 proffers an invite next week — which makes this all moot. But nothing in their (the B10) past actions indicates movement. We’ll see.
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If Missouri’s entrance to the Big Ten is contingent on Notre Dame approval, it’s doomed. If ND enters the Big Ten, it will want at least two eastern schools as partners so it still has some ties to the New York to Washington corridor where it has many alumni and recruits many students. That’s why Rutgers and Maryland, along with a third eastern school (Virginia? Syracuse? Pittsburgh, if worse comes to worst?) are keys to getting Notre Dame. The folks in South Bend could care less about Mizzou.
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Vincent, why not take the Eastern partners and go to 14 then?
I mean Rutgers/Maryland works as a solid move to 14. Then you sit back and wait on ND and take Mizzou or someone else when it finally does come around…
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I would agree with this. Delaney is a very smart man, but he’s also a dick.
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Delany completely misread the college landscape. I think he really wanted 12-18 months to think this through, and the only reason he announced it was because he didn’t want a replay of the ACC situation where everything came out of the blue and then Mark Warner screwed everything up. He didn’t want any surprises.
But he didn’t realize that as soon as he made an announcement, a giant game of musical chairs started. It was probably worse than a shocking, out-of-the-blue announcement.
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I think if Mizzou doesn’t go B10, they would be a candidate for the SEC.
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I wouldn’t call the Kansas schools a remote possibility for the Big east if it survives. Since football is so important, the only strategy for the Big East is to have enough basketball power to keep the big conferences from punitive action. Remember, the Turner/CBS deal is billions of $$ for the basketball tournament.
For example, if the Pac16/Big Ten(16)/ SEC (16) tried to force the idea that only 16 team fb conferences get an autobid to the BCS, the BE and ACC could say “fine, and by the way we are starting a new post-season men’s basketball tournament and inviting all the mid-majors to it, but not you”.
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Cincinnati, Louisville, West Virginia, UConn and USF would split the Big East tomorrow to join forces with Kansas, KState, Iowa State and Mizzou.
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Have to hand it to Mandel, he did call it pretty early. Article gives some perspective, I mean, like he says, Nebraska is joining the freakin’ Big 10.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/stewart_mandel/06/10/nebraska.big.ten/
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Which situation would give Missouri, KU, K-State, Iowa State, and Baylor the softest landing in a worst-case scenario?
Option A) A 14-team Big “East” with those five schools plus TCU and SMU/Memphis/Houston/whatever in a West Division; and USF, Louisville, Cincy, WVU, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, and UConn in an East Division. (This assumes that ND and Pitt have capped off the Big Ten at 14.)
Option B) A 14-team Mountain West where they all join and Boise State stays in the WAC.
Option C) A remade Big 12 Conference with those five schools plus TCU, Utah, BYU, and a ninth school (New Mexico, Col. State, Houston, etc.). Only nine ways to slice the pie. Markets covered, at least to some degree, include Kansas City, St. Louis, DFW, Salt Lake City, and either Albuquerque, Houston, or Denver.
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*I meant to delete Pitt for my East Division in Option A.
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[i](html practice)[/i]
Here Come the Hawks
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While I’m totally a biased Big 10 fan and pulling for Texas/aTm to join, the Big 10 getting their dream scenario and effectively shutting the PAC10 off from making it to 16 MIGHT actually be the best thing for a ton of schools nationally.
Assuming that the PAC10 would take Colorado and Utah to be at 12, the Big 12 would only be left with OU, OkSt, ISU, Kansas, KSU, Baylor, and Tech.
It’s a foregone conclusion that the SEC won’t stand for being at 12 if the Big 10 is 16. OU and OkSt and Tech seem like a great way for the SEC to open up the Texas markets. Whomever they take for #16, it’ll be inside their footprint.
The ACC will withstand any minor hit to its membership by the SEC.
The BIg East would theoretically escape with its life.
The MWC could either disband and take the penalty money-rich (and BCS bid endowed!) Big 12 moniker…or they could invite the final four schools to their conference.
My point in all this is…
Big 10…at 16
SEC…at 16
ACC…at 12
Big East…at 8
MWC/Big 12…at 12
PAC10…at 12
Super conferences aren’t on the horizon yet.
However, if the PAC10 manages to pull off their coup, the Big 10 will gut the Big East and SEC will make it to 16 eventually too. It would be inevitable that the ACC would follow suit. And I’m not sure ANY of us will like that landscape of college athletics.
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Yeah, the one benefit of the Big Ten taking Texas/A&M (obviously self-interested) is as you point out, that the land of superconferences will be long delayed. The Pac-10’s only shot is Texas to superconference glory. If they ever get stalled, then there’s no real reason for every conference to go there.
But if they do, then the Big Ten will go with ND to 16, and the SEC will figure out some path to 16 through the ACC most likely if they can. And of course the ACC will merge with remnants of the Big East and thereby hit 16 as well.
You get 3 “have” BCS superconferences, 1 “slightly less have” BCS superconference, and then 1 or 2 BCS conferences MWC, etc.
Don’t necessarily think though that a part of Delany’s plan isn’t to take the system there.
Delany knows that the Big Ten teams have sort of been hurting in terms of recruiting in local stomping grounds etc. as compared to Florida/Texas/California, so removing a lot of teams from the BCS “have” conferences is a way of evening the playing field dramatically because top players will want to play for Big Ten/SEC/Pac-16 teamas more than any others.
It also substantially upgrades the brands just thinking about losing competitors between the Pac-10 and Big Ten geographically, i.e. Iowa v. Iowa State.
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As a PAC-10 guy, I obviously want the expansion to occur as planned. However you two make excellent points.
The one problem I see however, is that if the Pac-10 doesn’t pull this off then, due to a lack of serious options, they are relegated to “second tier” in the minds of most college sports fans.
Now that shouldn’t matter, but the perception can heavily influence the influx of students as well as the amount of available funds for the colleges involved.
Yeah, I’m bringing it back to the money. Without these teams, the PAC-10 falls much further behind the likes of the SEC and the BIG-10.
Bah, it’s late and I’m not making myself very clear am I?
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(Wish there was an edit option)
To add, the era of the “Mega-Conference” is already coming. If not now, then soon.
This could very well be the PAC-10’s only chance.
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Yeah, I got what you were saying.
I also think USC’s troubles played into this. USC could be set back a half decade.
That had to play into the Pac-10’s calculations.
Of course, the fact that only Texas can get the Pac-10 to a Pac-16 is of primary importance, but everything played into this situation rolling out.
And of course the fact that the SEC and Big Ten were rapidly becoming the only two “have” conferences due to the power of football/national footprint/brands was becoming a perception issue for the Pac-10.
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“and the SEC will figure out some path to 16 through the ACC”
I can’t stand the freaking SEC.
Keep your academic dignity and stay in the ACC, Miami, FSU, GT, VT, and Clemson!
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Only found this from one source, so not verified. Colorado has recieved, and will accept, an invitation from the PAC-10.
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/collegesports/2010/06/09/pac-10-expansion-on-thursday-it-becomes-the-pac-11/
The main bit:
“Just got off the phone with a source familiar with the negotiations between the Pac-10 and Big 12 schools, who said:
* Colorado “is likely to formally accept” an invitation to join the Pac-10 on Thursday.
Repeat: Colorado to the Pac-10 on Thursday.”
If this is true, then that’s two down…
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Well at this point, if Texas… excuse me, if the Big 12 has any chance at surviving, then BYU and TCU had better be receiving phone calls from Tex… from the Big 12 soon.
BYU has a large enough fanbase to soften the blow from the loss of Nebraska, and it could also soften the blow from the loss of the Denver market. TCU would just keep the league at a comfortable 12. St. Louis and Kansas City markets would be salvaged.
It really depends on how much Texas wants to do the Longhorn Sports Network
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I don’t necessarily think that’s an option as much as I may before.
The problem is A&M/OU. Those two schools can automatically get invites to the SEC, particularly A&M. So any situation where Texas stays in the Big 12 with an LSN is tenuous at best.
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A&M/OU was the same problem BEFORE Nebraska applied for the Big Ten. If the SEC came calling, they’d have gone there for the same reasons they’d go now. With or without Nebraska, the SEC is a more lucrative option for those schools.
But a Big 12 sans NU/CU with BYU & TCU would allow A&M/OU to remain in the much more-winnable Big 12.
With that in mind, why does NU’s move change things so much for OU and A&M, not to mention the rest of the league?
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You lose one of the three big brands (and A&M is a big brand, but not as big nationally as the other three).
That matters a lot for the Big 12 TV contract. You go to the market based on teams that can sell top games.
You can’t replace Nebraska in that respect.
You’re just replacing your average inventory with BYU or TCU.
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“With that in mind, why does NU’s move change things so much for OU and A&M, not to mention the rest of the league?”
Well, it probably doesn’t change much for OU, but the Big 12 was never A&M’s idea. It’s only there because of politics, so why should they want to stay in a 15 year old political bargain that suddenly took a hit to its value?
Everyone in this thread needs to understand that UT has a long, rivalry with OU, but A&M didn’t play the Big 8 schools much before the Big 12 was formed. There are no traditionalists at A&M saying we have to play OU and OSU every year, because that’s not really a tradition. Certainly we appreciate OU as a big game on our schedule, but there could certainly be other good teams to schedule.
If you’re into athletic tradition, the SEC has more appeal, as there is more history with LSU and Arkansas than any non-Texas Big 12 school. If you’re into academics, the Big 10 or Pac 10 is stronger. If you’re into the best financial deal for the university, each of those conferences are better for the university.
The only thing that would tie A&M further to the Big 12 is politics. Nebraska (and now Colorado) is evidence the University can go to the public and say that the last political bargain failed; it’s time to find a new situation, and it would be much healthier and stable if there isn’t politics this time around (though I know that’s inevitable).
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Agreed, and in all honesty, Texas pulling something out to keep the BIG XII alive wouldn’t surprise me. Though I do think that it’s about 90% that the BIG XII is done.
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This is a false rumor started by a Big 12 “anonymous” coach. A coach in the loop enough to have this info would not be sharing it to reporters. More likely another plant to fuel the fire regarding the Texas mess.
I’ve been hearing Colorado is actually out on the Pac-10 thing too, which basically means people are just guessing hoping to catch it right as some sort of scoop.
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Previous post was meant as reply to WhiskyJack on report Colorado was going Pac-10 Thurs.
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Awesome
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Adding
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Add
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Add again
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+
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Poutine.
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One:
I wish I watched Lost (wait, I don’t. you all got suckered into watching that crummy show just because you needed closure) so I could put it in better words. If all the college conferences were stuck on an island, the Pac10 would be the Big10’s best friend. Agreed? Why kill off your best friend and get stuck with those other guys you don’t get along with as well? If the whole mega-conference scenario goes down, the Pac10 must, must, must get UT. And therefore if the B10 takes UT, they murder the P10. I’m pretty sure I was the first person to propose the theory that the Big10 *wants* UT to go to the Pac10. I’m not saying it happened, but I wouldn’t be surprised. I’d imagine it’d go something like this. Delaney: “Look, man, I’ve got this idea. We really want ND, but they won’t come unless there is a big shakeup. If we leave UT alone, could you try this strategy I have? All we care about is the SEC not getting them.”
When this is all over, and UT isn’t in the Big Ten, you will all take your blinders off and realize that it was a terrible idea. I just don’t see them working long-term. I think a lot of you B10 fans have tunnel vision. You want all homeruns. I can understand that. But it’s just not necessary. All that’s needed is a tightly knit group that’s competitive. UT to the P10 is just much better for college sports. What’s bad for college sports is bad for the B10. Gotta spread the love.
Two:
Here’s an NYC strategy. Big Ten takes RU and SU. Rutgers would play some games at the Meadowlands. Syracuse would play some games at Yankee stadium. That’s how you get NYC interested in college football. Meadowlands = NJ host = Rutgers. Yankees stadium = NY host = SU. With ND in there, I think you have a pretty good chance to crack that market.
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Syracuse University is 250 miles from Yankee Stadium. They’re completely unnecessary if you have Notre Dame and Rutgers. If anything, Notre Dame will be the one playing home games at Yankee Stadium.
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Look, at the beginning, every person here acknowledged that the Pac-10 had limited scenarios. Only three schools really fit the profile of what they wanted, Texas/A&M/Colorado. Even adding Utah to that, they had to take 2 more schools that they don’t really care for to make it work.
Syracuse is interesting but are they really that strong a fit? AAU means something if you actually make an effort in terms of research. Having a historical AAU invite and staying in the AAU means nothing if you don’t put up the research numbers. The Big Ten presidents know this. They’re only really going to make an exception on research capabilities for Notre Dame because its mission is expressly more undergraduate focused, but its football brand is at the top.
Rutgers/Maryland are the best possible fits on the East Coast.
Both in terms of size (Rutgers 50000+ students, Maryland at 37000 is second largest in ACC) and location with Rutgers right off Manhattan and Maryland off of the D.C. markets where there’s lots of alums.
Also, both are solid academically and in good recruiting states.
You might go after Virginia or Missouri after that and pair it with Notre Dame as the final ones.
Syracuse/UConn are more of oddballs in all of this. Both are better fits in the ACC and if they end up there, won’t hurt the Big Ten (just as Texas in the Pac-10 won’t hurt the Big Ten).
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@jeepers. and I have been echoing your ideas re: TX to P14/16 is a GOOD THING for B10+; the B10+ WANTS the P10/16 to be a premier conference for the next 50 years and, as you say, TX to P14/16 is essential for that to happen given the limited geography for the P10.
to repeat: TX to the P14/16 is not a “loss” or “fail” for the B10.
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@ Jeepers: Yes, the Pac-10 is the Big Ten’s best friend. Think big picture. The end game will be the Big Ten/Pac-10 ‘s networks collaboration for joint national distribution. Thus it doesn’t matter as much if the Pac-10 gets Texas. The Big Ten reaches east to NY/NJ/DC and the entire country short of the south is reached, and the joint project gets on first tier networks everywhere.
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I totally agree with this Tx 6 to Pac 10 is a good thing for the Big Ten. I believe the network joint venture is a big time money maker and that this grand master plan is what Delany and Scott are devising. Then SEC/ACC divide up BE and stubb B12 and Delany”s vision of 4 Supers and a playoff is reality and his final legacy.
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I disagree somewhat. Texas to the Pac-10 is perhaps a “moral victory” but is still a loss of a sort, because Rose Bowl or not, the B10 does compete with the other conferences for prestige. So we beat them in research dollars. That’s nice, but my guess is that most of us are in a frenzy about all of this becuase we love college football. I want the B10 to be considered better than the SEC on the gridiron, not just in the classroom. Taking Texas out of the equation hurts that and perhaps even evelates the P10 over the B10. The Rose Bowl is fun, but less so if the B10 team gets blown out by the P10 team every year.
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@jcfreder – With the USC sanctions, we should get a whole bunch of Rose Bowls retroactively awarded to us, though.
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Step away from the crack pipe. This entire forum seems to only consist of Franks delusions of getting Texas to join the Big 10 on the big 10’s terms.
That is NEVER ever gonna happen. The pure arrogance from the Big 10 types is amazing. The Big 10 has been irrelevant for decades. Congrats on taking Nebraska… another team that has been irrelevant forever. You guys should have some great stories about the 90s.
So congrats on your tv sets and your big 10 network. I suppose someone needs to watch all those meaningless games between average at best teams. Super Death Star Conference? for reals?
You like star wars Frank? dork.
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The Big10 is more relevant around the world than any other conference. With 11 AAU members (maybe 12 now) and the exclusive CIC, Big10 schools are recognized globally. Now if you want to talk football, I will still argue that they are relevant…but it just goes to show your ignorance to the big picture. My degree is from an institution that conducts research for bettering the world…yours says that you can slug a few beers before noon and watch a game shirtless. Congratulations.
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Don’t mind him, he’s just cranky that it in all the matters that actually, you know, matter (academics, stability, growth) the BigTen will continue grow and soon far outpace any other conference in the nation.
Eventually the combined weight of the Pac/Big will be able to force the academic standards, over-signing rules, and a host of issues that force them to operate at a competitive disadvantage down the NCAA’s throat.
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I always thought using the term “for reals?” in one sentence and then calling someone else a dork in the next for liking Star Wars was a bit like licking your dog’s ass… once people find out you did it, it’s much more likely you’re going to be called a douchebag.
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Doesn’t everyone like Star Wars?
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Is the Big Ten sure that they want Texas anywhere near them?
They have almost as much baggage as ND, hell with the polititians involved it’s probably more baggage. At least ND speaks of tradition, independence, and religion as reasons for their superiority. Texas theoretical superiority is based purely on geography, and they like to call everyone else arrogant, freakin’ hilarious.
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I think Scott has a pretty good point. Adding NU doesn’t suddenly make the Big 10 a good football conference. Neither does adding Rutgers, ND, or Syracuse. If anything, the football in the Big 10 would be even worse than it is currently. Adding Missouri or Pitt would help some, but the fact remains that the Big 10 is a weak football conference.
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I’d take a degree from a mediocre football conference that is a leader in profitability and puts a premium on EDUCATION (hence COLLEGE sports)than a degree from, oh say, and SEC school that pretty much means I showed up to class when I wasn’t tailgating.
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Derek, do you honestly believe academics are that important in this debate? If so, why would the Big 10 add Nebraska first? Nebraska’s academics are far worse than any other Big 10 school. This move is all about money and football. Academics plays a small part, which explains the Tech problem, but in the end it’s all about the $$$.
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I disagree. NU joining the big10 brings a program with success, tradition and one in the midst of a resurgence. Every other school in the big10 will step it up to be more competitive, just like they did when PSU joined – resulting in Iowa and Wisky being perennially competitive, and sometimes BCS-bowl-bound, teams.
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Scott,
For better or worse, Frank has let me openly post here and I have never felt that Texas was a good idea. Not in an “research” or “sports” way but in a personal feeling that being in the Big 10 is being part of the team, not being all about ME, ME, ME in this modern world. Big 10 is WE and Texas screams ME! That said the fact that I am still posting tells me that no matter what Frank’s feelings are, the discussion has been VERY open to differing views.
a) you do not have to post here
b) you seem free to post opposing views, and are encouraged to offer supporting reason / logic
c) somebody likes Star Wars as they made $$ and 6 movies
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So much to say, so little time worth wasting! GFYA!!!
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SEC fan Scott? If the Big 10 is so irrelevant why is the entire college football world talking about them? Seems there was a National title team from the Big Ten in 2002, how is that decades, go back and try math again.
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He’s in denial that Penn State spanked LSU, or that Iowa and tOSU both won their BCS games.
Might even be a jilted, closet sPitt fan.
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Thrilled with the Blackhawks win but as a Redwings fan my overriding concern is whether Scotty gets his name on his Twelfth Stanley Cup.
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Forget NE, the biggest change in college football may be decided in a few hours when TX and aTm meet on RC Slocum’s ranch, Fort Sumpter.
A Houston radio host is reporting aTm was offered an SEC invite last night. Then again, the host is a fat, clueless, LSU blowhard who is always trashing TX, so who knows its veracity. Right now he’s moaning that no Horns are calling in. Horns not listening to a rabid TX-basher? Who would have guessed?
Whether an invite has been issued or not, we all know it will be extended by the SEC if asked. There’s a gambit that if OU also goes to the SEC, TX will basically be dragged east. I don’t think it will work, but it isn’t an idle threat. And the SEC will let TX keep its LSN.
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Oh yeah, here’s a chance to take the pulse of College Station:
http://texags.com/main/forum.topic.asp?forum_id=5&days=2
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Technical correction, the host is a UH grad married to an LSU gal. Same difference, still an irrational TX-hater.
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I think this is an interesting angle, and may help drive UT to pursue the Pac16 idea over any thoughts of the Big Integer.
I believe that UT does not want to be in the SEC, but recruiting Texas gets more interesting if UT goes north alone leaving A&M and OU, which has always recruited well in Texas, plus really opening the floodgates for all the other SEC schools.
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BLOGGERS UNITE!!
Just hit ESPN that Izzo is on a plane to cleveland!
I know most folks here are football guys, but Izzo needs to keep calling the Big 10 home (If we get Maryland, but lose Izzo, not good for Big 10 basketball).
SAVE FERRIS! SAVE IZZO!
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Bad on multiple fronts for me. I don’t like what that does for Big Ten basketball and Cleveland isn’t offering Izzo a massive contract unless LeBron is staying and not heading to his rigtful place: the Chicago Bulls.
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If Izzo leaves MSU, Maryland (and Syracuse) rise a notch to Big Ten officials, if only to preserve the men’s basketball brand.
BTW, Frank, congrats to the Blackhawks; once the Capitals were eliminated, I hoped Lord Stanley would end up in Chi-town. Hear the parade is Friday — get it done early so people can watch the Sox and Cubs on the North Side that afternoon.
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Don’t believe the MSU brand drops so far to effect expansion.
It is MSU
they will be fine.
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Don’t know about that. A basketball crazy state and great University like Indiana still hasn’t found it’s way after Bobby Knight was sent packing.
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Time to call Brian Gregory?
Tom Crean wouldn’t leave would he?
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willarm1,
i am IU basketball guy, and am very happy to have Crean as the guy to bring IU back in baskeball!
My happy future has Izzo vs Crean in a long and happy Big 10 basketball world.
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Spartan alum here, and my “Oh $hit” meter is at 8 on this Izzo to the Cavs thing.
But, our AD Hollis said yesterday he is prepared to hire a coach “right now” if Izzo leaves. That tells me he has Brian Gregory ready to go, as getting Crean would take some wheeling and dealing to get him out of IU.
I don’t think Izzo affects expansion one bit. Bball is just not a driving factor in expansion- if it was, Nebraska would not be the B10’s first add. And even if BBall was important, one coach does not make the league (even though Izzo is the baddest mofo ever!)
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derrick,
i know Izzo is nothing in the expansion thing, but I have said all along that I am a basketball guy first and foremost. If IU lost Crean or MSU lost Izzo it may not be a big deal to the football folks on this blog but for me it would be like losing a member of my family. it is all emotion here, as even as an IU guy, Izzo is da bomb.
I know gregory has MSU roots, but he is not IZZO! Maybe I am just older, but it would not be great news!
frank,
I know this is off topic, but if not gregory who would MSU fans like to see if Izzo goes to cleveland?
gregory is younger
tubby is izzo “lite”
crean is IU
????
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If Izzo left MSU, they’d fall back to the bad old days of Jud Heathcote.
Wait a minute. That doesn’t sound right.
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MSU should only be going after Crean if Dwayne Wade has another year of eligibility left. Never has one coach cashed so many paychecks on the back of a single player.
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Self might be available for MSU if Kansas is relegated to the MWC
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Duff- I’m also an IU fan. I would be thrilled if MSU took Crean off our hands.
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shroom,
I would trade Crean to MSU if IU got Self but I am still not in the Crean out the door group yet. In a few more years, but I want him to get through a few more classes.
I do not want to see IU mired in muddling basketball teams, but I do not want IU to become to basketball what bama became after the ‘bear’. long term I would be happy as hell to see IU vs UK take back the glow that UNC vs Duke has taken from them.
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@Frank,
Come on, Frank…One mega Superstar per city every 50 years…Until you knock down the Jordan Statue, be happy with whatever you get…
If Izzo is going, it’s only because LeBron is staying. Izzo is too smart to leave otherwise…Actually, I thought Gilbert was too smart to hire a college coach when that path has been tried and no one has succeeded…Of course, the college coaches turned pro coaches never had a LeBron.
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added
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http://ncaafootball.fanhouse.com/2010/06/09/a-beautiful-move-texas-aandm-to-sec/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ClayTravisFanHouse+%28Clay+Travis+FanHouse+Columns%29&utm_content=Twitter
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/college/7044884.html
Hey! Ags, ChiTown, Zeek and other Big Ten people, BamaMan and AlaninBatonRouge, JohDDenver, SEC folks and PAC 10 guys.
A&M – Texas meeting in Austin today?
Could be a request from UT to the Ags for an attitude adjustment to get the SEC out the door, or
Could be a planning session for the announced six to the Pac 10 East
Could be a planning session to placate Tech and OU to the Pac and A&M and UT to the Big 10
Which of the following new looks do you like the best? Which look do you logically, logically! think is most likely?
PAC: Tech, CU, Missouri, Utah, KU, OU, Az, AzSt or
TX, A&M, OU, OSU, Tech, CU,Az, AzSt
Big 10: PSU,OSU,Ind,Rut
Mich,MSU,Pur,Notre
Wisc,Iowa,Min,Neb
A&M, UT, Ill, NW
SEC: Tech, A&M, UT, OU as new west division or pods of
A&M, LSU, UT, ARK
Miss, MSU, Ala, Aub
Ten, Ky, Van, SC
UF, Ga, FSU, Clem
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I don’t think Pac16 works without UT. Keeping the 3 big Texas schools and OU together is part of what makes that go, and UT is the cultural and academic bridge. It’s dicey even if just A&M splits off, though it could probably be workable.
Pac16 solves a lot of political and some practical problems.
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wes,
thanks for the link..
the point 5 is what I am looking at..
“The game at the end of the year would still happen, it would just be an out-of-conference tilt. Honestly, the brand new Pac-16 vs. the SEC would probably make it a bigger national game than it already is.
And the game would retain all of the regional hate that it already has. There’s already a template for these out-of-conference rivalry games in the SEC since Florida plays Florida State and South Carolina plays Clemson on the same weekend.”
A point I keep making that seems to get lost is that the SEC is the master of the OOC Rival GAME! The SEC gets the Texas market without taking the ego of UT and can actually do BETTER by not adding UT. i know we keep ragging the SEC for academics but they are stuck with the Mississippi schools (the only tier 3 schools) unless the SEC tells Mississippi to become the Pittgers of the SEC (which oddly enough makes sense as it merges resources in a low population state).
from a football standpoint A&M keeps UT as an OOC eod of season rival game and trades OU for Arkansas (an old rival). Texas heads west with the lesser sisters, and A&M goes to a conference where it already feels at home.
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Although the Pac16 is doable without A&M, A&M makes the Pac16 much more stable.
If A&M goes to the SEC, the SEC has no reason not to try to get OU as another marquee name to cement the idea that the SEC is where the best football is played and get a school that fits in pretty well geographically and has a rabit fan base, plus brings more TV markets, even if it’s just two mid-markets.
For OU, which has some history with Arkansas and recently played Alabama in a home-and-home, played Florida and LSU in bowls in the past 10 years and already has Tennessee on the OOC schedule in a few years, the sure thing of SEC TV money could trump staying with UT for a Pac16 move.
Especially with USC likely to have a few mediocre years, the allure of a Pac16 would be diminished without OU.
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“rabid” fan base, not “rabit” fan base.
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Well it’s an interesting discussion, but at this point the Pac-16 looks like a reality until/unless A&M really looks like it’s going to leap.
We’ll know what’s going on after the Texas/A&M summit of sorts, to see if they’re really as much on the same page as we all assumed they would end up being.
I think if A&M splits, UT might be gettable. It all depends on what UT’s admins are thinking about.
Of course they may just replace it with UHou or someone else.
Still, political pressure is going to be immense (from the very top of the state down) on the Aggies to join UT and go west.
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Chip Brown television interview:
http://news8austin.com/content/sports/ut_sports/271657/conference-realignment-developments
Obviously pretty Texas-centric, but it is a good summary of what he’s been reporting over the last week or so.
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If I’m the SEC or even the ACC, I’m offering Texas and Texas A&M a deal similar to what the PAC-10 is offering. I would invite Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, and Baylor and form a 16 team mega-conference. This would avoid any of troubles from the Texas Legislature that the PAC-10 deal would bring.
Under this scenario the SEC would end up like this:
SEC WEST: Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Baylor, Arkansas, LSU, Mississippi, Mississippi State.
SEC EAST: Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vaderbilt, and Kentucky
If the ACC would make the offer, it would end up like this:
ACC SOUTH: Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Baylor, Florida State, Miami, Georgia Tech, and Clemson
ACC NORTH: North Carolina, NC State, Duke, Wake Forest, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Maryland, and Boston College.
The only real losers under this scenario would be Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, and possibly the Red River Rivalry.
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I know it solves certain political problems, but for the SEC to pick up Tech and especially Baylor and leave OU on the table is very sub-optimal for the SEC. Baylor brings little value in any event and Tech brings little marginal value if UT and A&M are in.
I don’t think the ACC makes sense for the Texas schools, and the two divisions you outline are less balanced than the Big12’s divisions were.
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Morning Folks!
a) WELCOME NEBRASKA!!
b) The A&M issue
from the SI link….
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/andy_staples/06/10/aggies.options/index.html
“If they choose the SEC — and the SEC subsequently agreed to choose them — entry would be simple. Texas A&M would need approval from nine of the 12 SEC presidents. It also would have to pay $50 in annual membership dues.”
1) not huge, but this looks like an easy pass, ie in early discussions about what the Big 10 would ask new members the numbers ranged from 5 Million to 50 Million (50 dollars to join – WOW!)
“That number will rise whether the Aggies stick with their Big 12 south brethren in the Pac-16 or strike out on their own in the SEC. Schools such as Miami, Florida State, Georgia Tech and Clemson have been tossed out as possible SEC targets. Those schools don’t make sense, because the SEC already has a stranglehold on the markets they would deliver.”
2) Much bigger deal, as I have said this all along about the SEC adding the usual suspects (Miami, FSU, Ga Tech, and Clemson). It benefits both sides as A&M can now recruit the south, and the SEC gets to recruit Texas. I know most folks kept saying how valuable UT is and I kept saying A&M was the real jewel (UT without the EGO). I am not happy at the prospect of A&M in the SEC.
“Texas A&M also is a member of the Association of American Universities. Only two SEC schools (Florida and Vanderbilt) are members. Plus, Texas A&M has grown from about 25,000 students in 1976 to about 47,000 now. That means more alumni than ever are about to enter their prime giving years.”
3) This gives the SEC an AAU school and increases the academic credibility of the SEC. This would open the eastern flank of the SEC to go after UNC, UVA, and MD. Suddenly you are looking at an academic swing that puts the SEC more in line with the PAC 16, while adding 4 new states. An earlier poster said the SEC has a CIC like setup in its infancy and adding these 4 schools would mean they would be at or near the core of how this would grow in the future. If the SEC could land these 4 you have a vibrant football, basketball, and academic conference.
“Slive didn’t take the SEC to the top of the college sports world by doing nothing. It was his league’s two 15-year contracts with ESPN and CBS (totaling more than $3 billion) that convinced the other leagues they needed to ramp up their revenue. Those contracts give the SEC security. It can still thrive as a 12-team league even if the Big Ten and Pac-10 supersize to 16, but a component of Slive’s success is his ability to read the tea leaves. After years in the new landscape, would the SEC be positioned to command a plum deal when next it sits at the negotiating table?”
4) I said in an earlier post that Slive being so quiet was bothering me. My thinking early on was the chess match was between Delany and Slive and something like this makes more sense that Slive going after FSU or WVA. The SEC and ACC are both ESPN turf, so adding A&M + UNC + UVA + MD would mean a new contract negotiation (and a possible SEC deal like the BTN – if ESPN thinks FOX will have the BTN and PTN in their pocket).
I know we keep thinking Texas and A&M will go together, it would be foolish to think that it would not to appeal to A&M to find their own identity. Not to be crude but if we look at the Aggies from the military context and their choices are the Big 10, the Pac 10, and the SEC it would appear that the SEC will get the Aggies from the “intangible” fit angle. A&M goes to the SEC, and Texas and company find a new home in the Pac 16.
commentary?
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I’d be shocked if UT’s political power is so slight that they can’t keep the Aggies with them. Considering that Texas politicians seem to have tied TTech to Texas, I would be beyond amazed if they let TAMU do its own thing.
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Richard!!!! Holy shit.
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Good Morning Everyone!
@Richard
I was of that view also, but ….
UT/A&M will always be an intense rivalry, but maybe the only thing that is inviolable is that they play every year. The predicate of “Tech problem” was that A&M and UT were together. If UT and A&M were to enter separate conferences–good situations–that might just keep the legislature at bay, and TTech and Baylor would have to deal with it.
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1. Texas & TAMU going to separate good conferences doesn’t solve the Tech problem any more than just the 2 of them heading to a good conference together would; one of them will have to bring Tech along (if not Baylor).
2. Texas has no incentive to let A&M go to the SEC alone, and would do everything in its power (including it’s political power) to keep little brother close (preferably to the Pac10 or Big10). The only way I can see the SEC forcing Texas to join them is if they propose to take Texas, TAMU, TTech, and Baylor as a package.
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Texas would come off as the bully then. It would be interesting to watch.
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They’ve come off as a bully before. I don’t see how it would affect their standing.
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Texas can do nothing to stop A&M from going to the SEC other than hope A&M decides not to go. It is still 50/50 at this point in time.
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I think the power of the Texas legislative forces are such that, if there is a “Tech Problem,” A&M has to live with it as well.
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Hopkins – I think that’s wishful thinking. I get the feeling that TTech and Baylor are UTx’s problems. Letting A&M go to the SEC actually opens a spot up for Baylor in the Pac 16. Cal and Stanford might not like it though. UTx is the oldest, strongest member of the Texas clan. If A&M, as the 2nd oldest, wants to strike out on his own, that should be his choice, but the oldest almost always gets stuck with little kid brother and goofy cousin.
But for that run from the mid-80s through the 90s, the Ags have been living in UTx’s shadow. Or as Sting would say, if you love somebody, set them free.
Also, thanks for the kind words in the last thread, Hop.
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“UTx is the oldest, strongest member of the Texas clan. If A&M, as the 2nd oldest, wants to strike out on his own, that should be his choice, but the oldest almost always gets stuck with little kid brother and goofy cousin.”
OK, I just want to point out to everyone who has been talking about A&M being the younger member…Texas A&M is actually the oldest public university in Texas.
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Best case for state of Texas political concerns would be for Baylor to join Texas A&M in an SEC expansion while Texas and Texas Tech go ahead and join the PAC10 as planned. There’s plenty of orphan programs in the west if the Big XII breaks up, so the PAC10 could grab Utah, Missouri or Kansas to replace Texas A&M in the PAC10 package. (In the case of Kansas, one would hope their politicians would be smart enough to unbind the rumored Kansas/Kansas State linkage so they can keep at least one in a major conference).
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I don’t think that the SEC want anything to do with Baylor either.
The Texas legislature can “attach” Baylor or UTEP or Tarrant County Community College to who ever the hell they want. Eventually it will just be flat out rejected by the new conference. While Texas and A&M are both great schools they only carry so much dead weight before it becomes a negative (or less attractive than some other school).
Attaching Kansas State to Kansas is a good way to kill BOTH of your state institutions. Kansas has value, but not enough to carry K State also.
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@Patrick, Guess we might find out fairly quickly about Baylor’s status. If the SEC has trouble prying schools away from the ACC, their options are going to be limited to expand to sixteen. A Texas A&M/Baylor combination would deliver a huge chunk of east Texas (the key would be whether Texas A&M administration decides to go that way). Am convinced that Texas and Texas A&M aren’t necessarily linked as it is generally being portrayed. If they decide to split by mutual agreement between the schools, the state legislature would go along so long as Tech and Baylor both have a safe place to land. The SEC would probably be happy to swallow all four schools at once, but that does not work for UT…Looks like a job for SuperGameTheoryMan!(Who is actually a country cousin of Hancock, for those who’ve seen that movie. Hancock was notorious for wreaking massive economic collateral damage while coming to someone’s rescue.).
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Seems like Delany would want A&M in the SEC. Yes, A&M would increase the SEC’s power, financial strength, and ability to recruit Texas. However, that move also…
— fractures the Texas schools. While this does not necessarily eliminate Texas’s Tech or Baylor problems, the first crack is the most difficult.
— sends the message to Notre Dame that multiple conference expansion is inevitable.
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Fracturing the Texas schools doesn’t do anything for the Big10. In any case, if the politicians won’t let Texas & TAMU go somewhere without Tech, what are the chances that they allow Texas and TAMU to go separate ways? I’d say 0.
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Frank if the NW message board is right, I think a public invite to those four schools would be awesome. What does the B10 have to lose. Let’s make this as public as possible. These are public schools after all (other than ND). The B10 already landed a whale, so even if all 4 rejected, it its not a total rebuke. Just make sure you can accept one or none. None of this conditional BS. You either want a school or don’t. The train is moving, but let’s kick it in high gear.
Great game last night – great Cup and great playoffs. I’d say its been a great year for hockey.
Here’s hoping it will be a great year in soccer. Probably not many soccer fans on this board, but I think we can all rally around the flag this Saturday againt England.
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So fired up for Saturday…
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Bill Self talks expansion:
http://theshiver.com/2010/06/kansas-coach-bill-self-meets-with-media/
Sounds like he’s done his homework. Obviously, he’s pimping Kansas, but he’s honest about his concerns and the reality of the situation.
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bet he leaves KU ends up in a conference that isn’t considered a basketball power conference or a BCS conference.
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congrats to the hawks…and eggs…
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A.D.D.
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Frank – Have you heard any rumblings as to when Nebraska would start playing a Big 10 schedule?
I would guess the 2011-12 academic year because I would find it hard to believe that the Big 12 (if there still is a Big 12) and Nebraska really don’t want to have 2 lame duck years.
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By the way – how pissed must Turner Gill be right about now. That Auburn gig must be looking pretty sweet in retrospect.
Also, no matter the topic, I never pass up a chance to mention Rutgers doesn’t belong in the Big 10 (though from reading posts on here their normal fans seem downright – gawd forbid – reasonable and ok) …
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Conversely, how lucky was Chizik to handed landed that job before really stating the rebuilding process at Iowa State.
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adding, and BTW Go Big Red! If this announcement goes down on Friday like it is supposed to; this’ll be just like the day AD Pederson and HC Callahan were fired…time to celebrate!
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I read somewhere that if a conference loses teams to the point where it no longer has six teams that have been in the conference for at least five years, that that conference is automatically disbanded, which nullifies any exit fees. Can anyone verify that?
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I found the place I’d read this rule. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/sports/07conference.html.
The article states the following:
If the Pac-10 swiped six teams from the Big 12 and Missouri or Nebraska went to the Big Ten, the Big 12 would become defunct. Under N.C.A.A. guidelines, a conference needs at least six universities that have played together for five years. The Big 12 would lose its Bowl Championship Series bid and automatic bid to the N.C.A.A. basketball tournament.
Another site said that rule would nullify the exit fee requirements, since the league would no longer exist.
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Reports this morning say that Colorado has accepted the Pac10’s invite and has agreed to leave the Big12(-2). Good pre-emptive strike by Colorado to avoid being replaced by Baylor.
Texas and A&M are having a meeting today to discuss their futures, and I have to assume this is a sales trip by UT to get A&M on board with the Pac16.
If the Pac16 happens, I expect Missouri to have a presser soon after to announce their intentions to join the BigTen, followed by a Notre Dame presser to the same effect.
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Not so sure Missouri has that invite/assurance from Big Ten yet.
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I think for the moment, the BigTen is waiting to see what happens in the Big12. If they try to hold the fort together, the BigTen might stop expansion at 12. But, if the Big12 blows up, I expect that invite to Missouri to go out in order to keep the SEC from moving into the St. Louis and Kansas City markets.
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No one expects the Big12 to hold together; Texas has already told its coaches the Big12 is dead. Mizzou just isn’t terribly appealing.
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Well of course.
If the Big 12 somehow holds together, then the Big Ten has pulled off a huge coup in getting Nebraska this time around.
Think about how much easier it would be to go after Texas/A&M in 2-3 years after Nebraska is integrated…
Then again, I’m not certain Mizzou gets an invite unless the SEC actively makes a move on them and Delany wants to outflank the SEC.
They won’t go to the SEC over bitterness in waiting on a Big Ten invite, etc.
In any case, the Big Ten’s best course of action is to look Southeast or East if the Texas/A&M summit results in a commitment to the Pac-16.
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I keep reading that there is no reason to rush, that these conferences can wait a year or two or three to add new schools, but isn’t the point to have the schools sooner (schooner) rather than later (fla gator) due to the leverage they provide you in renegotiating expiring tv contracts that only come up every blue moon ?? I thought THIS was the reason this expansion is coming to fruition NOW and not some arbitrary random “hey what the hell we should expand this year just for the f of it”
btw – No to Rutgers.
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I think the Big Ten just sits for a while and Delany goes back to his “12-18 month timetable” that he always wanted. There are two schools that aren’t going anywhere–Rutgers and Missouri–so there is no need to offer them now. They’ll still be there in two years if ND gives their ultimate no and the Texas schools are off to other conferences.
Maybe if the ACC goes after Rutgers, Delany has to act. But I don’t see that happening unless they lose schools to the SEC, and I don’t see that happening at all.
I think we play at least one and maybe two seasons as a 12 team conference.
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I just don’t see sitting on 12 as happening at all. This train has left the station.
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I was just over at a Washington Post chat and brought up Maryland possibly going to the Big Ten, including the academic and research benefits to College Park, and got this response from Barry Svrluga:
Barry Svrluga writes:
I have no patience for any talk about conference realignment that has anything to do with academics. The people who drive these things talk them up, but they are complete afterthoughts while they’re going on. That is an absolute non-factor.
He covered ACC expansion in 2003, and perhaps simply doesn’t realize the Big Ten looks at this from a completely different perspective. Another reason that viewing this whole endeavor strictly as a sports story is folly (somethimg most sportswriters, even those at places like the Post, simply don’t get).
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@Vincent
The changes are going so wide-spread, with a clear divide between the winners and the losers, that there´s going to be quite a bit of public backlash.
You also have to remember that great swaths of the country have been caught with their pants down regarding all of this – only now beginning to grasp its importance.
As someone who indulges in expansion news and has become a bit obsessed, its tough to for me to understand, but this is what happens when you´re pissed and uninformed but someone´s willing to publish your thoughts: That person ends up sounding like an idiot to anyone who has actually studied the subject.
I think the media will eventually come around – if for no other reason than that the subject is spelled out for them – but in the meantime, we have to bite our tongues when people like this decide to open their mouths.
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Michael,
I agree 100%, I think many folks are just getting in.. we have been hashing out issues (with good debate – thank you fellow bloggers) for quite some time. Granted this is mostly Big 10 stuff, but maybe we can draw in some A&M folks for their perspective. Maybe some Maryland folks as well.
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vincent,
if this is the only decision in expansion who would you choose?
Maryland or Texas A&M?
no other considerations like the terps bring ND or A&M brings UT type of thing.. strictly one or the other as a stand alone?
thanks
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I think most here (who doesn’t have a personal stake in A&M or Maryland) would say A&M except for mushroomgod (or whoever it was who said they’re a terrible fit).
That being said, A&M and Maryland are similar in terms of their value to the Big Ten, so there isn’t really a right answer to that question; they’re both at the top of the list of schools most people would want to see…
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For me A&M in a heartbeat. I just don’t get the appeal of MD. A&M is a good school and would only get better. But I recognize both bring different positive attributes to the table. Getting Texas (even through A&M) would be great for the bit 10 though. Hard to pass that up.
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Over on a Badgers board they are running a poll.
Which eastern program would you want to join the Big Ten?
The choices were Maryland, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, and UConn.
When I made my choice I surprised myself. Then I had to think hard about my justification. Bear with me here as I repeat my case…
I love Big Ten football. I love the big slow Big Ten football that Texas and SEC types love to ridicule.
I detest spread offenses, run-and-shoot, or any of that crap where you send a bunch of slippery smurfs scurrying all over the field. It reminds me too much of flag football in grade school Phys. Ed.. You would look across the line and realize the “fast kid” and one guy who could throw were over there… and know you were screwed.
A lot of my enjoyment since the Badgers started winning has been we have whipped the other guys and didn’t trick them. When it hasn’t been so good I can still tip my hat, we have usually been beaten… right up front in the trenches where football is played.
Give me smash-mouthing, blue-collar kids kicking ass any day. Give me the U huddling around their heaters like a bunch of wounded nancies. I love that.
When everybody first looked at expansion hardly anybody listed Nebraska because we were all focused on population centers for the BTN above all else. But then the TV-savvy guys quickly dismissed that notion. Nebraska is a proven ratings power, and they have continued to show their brand strength with great matchups against OU, UT, and top bowl games. I am guessing it was pretty easy for the TV consultants to put the Huskers high on the list. And they do have that Big Ten feel and fit.
Why do I want to emphasize this? Look in that other thread (above-mentioned poll). I have been as big an advocate of all the “smart” metrics as anybody. Academic fit, television markets, institutional fit, ratings, etc. But I voted for Pitt. Others are voting the same way. Screw the footprint in this case. Pitt fits the Big Ten just like the Huskers.
By most academic metrics Pitt blows Nebraska away. But as we all have heard, the duplicate TV footprint just kills them. It sure hasn’t helped that being in the Big East continues to diminish their “brand”. Crappy Big East football. Lousy bowl tie-ins. I admit I haven’t watched a Pitt game in years. You look back to the divergence from the time when Penn St. came to the Big Ten and Pitt ended up stuck in the Big East…. wow… that just sucked for Pitt.
How much of that brand value can be restored if Pitt just started hanging out with better company?
The TV guys did grade school math to put Nebraska near the top of the list. The same grade school math may have knocked Pitt completely off the list. I just hope the media guys are smarter than that. Maybe it is naive, but I keep thinking of those Pitt teams of the 80’s and internally project them coming to Big Ten stadiums. I think that is what that poll is saying for many of us. Recent TV data must make Pitt look like crap. Maybe it will take advanced calculus by the TV guys, but somehow they need to quantify this gut feeling I have that Pitt is a great choice.
If a 16th spot is still open and Notre Dame is still being Notre Dame, screw them. Take in Pitt. Notre Dame can later settle for their open spot in the Big East. It would be beautiful irony if we could see diverging paths again.
(No offense intended to any of you Notre Dame guys. I for one do not want to force your hand to join the Big Ten. I think the long-term success of Big Ten expansion requires willing partners. I respect your traditions and differences. If the climate changes enough that you truly want to join the club, I would welcome you gladly.)
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I could see Pitt working if Rutgers/Maryland are 13-14 and Delany doesn’t think Syracuse brings much of NY and Missouri doesn’t move the dial much. At that point Pitt. may help lock down the Northeast more (and make Maryland more willing to come so it’s with a bunch of northeastern schools).
We’ll see though. I still think the Big Ten needs to make a play at Maryland/Rutgers sooner rather than later if the writing is on the wall about Texas going west.
In terms of state schools that have massive numbers of alumni and large markets with top notch research, those two have to be near the top of the list.
Get Gee on the phone with Mote.
Also, if you have Nebraska/Rutgers/Maryland locked in, you can go to Notre Dame and be like “who are you going to join with…” I’m pretty sure they’ll say Pitt over Mizzou.
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I agree your scenario is the likely way it would work out for Pitt to get an invite. As a 1st choice… not likely. But if the Texas teams go off the board Pitt could very well be the best choice for the 3rd team in a move east/southeast.
My ramble was all about explaining that fuzzy-good feel I got when I voted Pitt on that poll. Footprint be damned.
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@ Zeek: maybe you didn’t mean the metaphor in the same biblical proportions as it actually is in the Bible, but “the writing on the wall” suggests the end of the world if TX goes West.
I say it again: TX to the west is NOT a loss or fail for the B10. The Rose Bowl Conferences are going to end up with all the best of what’s out there to be had (that is, neither conference is ever going to get Florida — and, as much as it pains me to say, Florida would be a home run “get”).
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I don’t think it’s much of a loss at all.
I’m one of those who think the death of the Big 12 is a big, big gain for the Big Ten’s western teams especially.
Think about what removing Iowa State from a power conference does for Iowa’s value.
And about how Nebraska will be the only power in the great plains in a power conference since Oklahoma will be firmly attached to the southwest, etc.
I just think that killing the Big 12, even if the Pac-10 gets Texas/A&M, is too big a gain.
Think about it, outside of the Southeast, all of the power will be concentrated in the Big Ten and Pac-10.
That’s not a bad thing at all.
In any case, I do think the Big Ten has plenty of good expansion scenarios open. The Pac-10 only had one expansion scenario to begin with…
Of course, this all only happens if the SEC’s run at A&M is not successful…
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yep, you and I are on the same page then.
and adding NEB immediately upgrades the “brands” of all the western schools in the B10; wiscy and iowa get big “upgrades” and even IL and Minny and Nwestern will be enhanced.
as i said up above somewhere, how about NU & NEB playing at Wrigley or Soldier Field. (NU gets slaughtered, but still… how fun!)
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NU’s stadium isn’t big enough for the traveling Nebraska fans. A friend of mine played there, my sis-in-law graduated from NW, their stadium looks like a practice field.
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I’m not sure that ISU dropping down to mid-major status really helps the Hawkeyes much. When was the last time a football recruit chose the Cyclones over the Hawkeyes? Doesn’t happen much. Basketball might be a different issue, except the Hawks are woeful at hoops right now and you can still field a strong BBall team from a mid-major conference.
The only area where it might make a difference is wrestling, but I’m one of those weird Hawk alum who really don’t care about the wrestling team.
The Cyclone fans aren’t going to start cheering for or watching the Hawks now. They hate us. I suppose over a couple decades more children in Iowa will grow up cheering for the Hawks, but that’s already happening, no matter what happens.
I’d prefer that the B12 stayed together and that ISU had a BCS home. The legislature demands that we play each year, so it counts for more in the rankings if ISU is in a power conference. But I’m not going to shed a tear if they end up in CUSA, nor do I want Iowa to try to influence the process to help them.
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Yeah but my point wasn’t necessarily about ISU.
My point was more about all of the schools between the Pac-10 and Big Ten.
All of them will be relegated to mid-major status effectively.
Over time that will have a noticeable impact on viewing patterns etc.
Obviously, I’m not saying that ISU fans will cheer for the Hawkeyes or something.
What I am saying is that your average college sports fan without an alumni (or even with) allegiance living between the Pac-10 and Big Ten will be more likely to tune in to Nebraska/Iowa, etc.
I’m just arguing that removing the Big 12 significantly upgrades the brand values of the Pac-10 and Big Ten because over time, it’s easier to capture eyeballs between the Big Ten and Pac-10 as the power conferences run away with all of the $ and that begins to show up in terms of parity issues (as if they weren’t already there before), but it will become worse in a sense.
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No offense, but stuff like this is why everyone else hates the Big Ten.
It’s all about decimating other conferences until you can get to the point where you can say things like “Think about what removing Iowa State does for Iowa’s value”
Yuck, gross, no thank you.
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@zeke
As far as watching games on TV goes, I think people who grow up too far from a major college program just don’t become college sports fans. For people to become Iowa fans, it would be better to win a national championship in something than just be nearby. I think if you’re in Kansas, KU no longer is major college football school and you still want to cheer for a school, you’d be more likely to cheer for Penn State or Florida or USC if those schools were winning and the Hawkeyes weren’t, even if Iowa is closer geographically.
I guess what you might be saying is that there is a group of high school kids in the Great Plains states that want to attend a university with major college sports. I believe that is true. Some of those kids might look to Iowa if Iowa was the nearest school with major sports and become alums and donors. That’s possible. But I think the gains the U of I would get in that case would be very marginal.
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oh, and yeah, I am totally pro-Pitt as an addition. Great brand; great rivalry; great for PSU (which is good for B10); great academics; great defensive “get” to prevent ACC from entre to PA market.
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oh, and the B10 Presidents are clearly NOT
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grrr….
are clearly NOT as focused on tv markets as are this board/many posters.
evidence: they just invited/accepted NEB. brings no new giant tv market (or even a large populous state); the key to NEB was/is the brand. I think the Pitt brand is strong enough and the PSU connection is another strong factor.
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oh, and ND is the same. no new markets; it’s the brand name (that is, tv RATING) and that trumps the tv market.
if the B10 took Neb and would take ND in a heartbeat, then the B10 is NOT all focused on expanding into new markets.
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Yeah, but brand matters in terms of national brand.
Nebraska has a brand that resonates from coast to coast like OSU/PSU/Michigan or Oklahoma, etc.
Pitt doesn’t have that. Pitt does have somewhat of a national brand but it’s more of a second tier nature, I’d put it around Iowa or Wisconsin.
It would be a great add in terms of football, but the Nebraska addition was all about increasing the value of the games that are being played in terms of their national value and Big Ten Network value.
Every game that Nebraska has against a Big Ten opponent now has a national brand attached. The value of that “inventory” thus goes up in a similar way.
The effect is even more pronounced by the fact that some of Nebraska’s games will get the national TV ABC/ESPN treatment, and some more of OSU/PSU/Michigan/Iowa/Wisconsin will be on the Big Ten Network. You can’t underestimate that effect.
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agreed.
a national brand is better than a regional one and that’s better than an in-state brank.
and agreed that the Pitt brand is not Neb, TX, OK, MI, tOSU, FL, ‘bama, USC, etc. However, I’d say the Pitt Brand is quite a bit higher than MD, Rutgers, S’cuse, Mizzu, VA.
So there is a choice; brand vs. tv market (and then add in all the other factors like academics, existing relationship with a big powerful B10 member, etc.)
All I am really saying is that the tv market is NOT the overriding factor for the B10 Presidents
And that is based on the only evidence we actually have: who has been invited (assuming the “invite” to NEB is accurate).
and I think we’re agreed that you take a national brand over regional etc.
as said many many many times on this Board, the issue is with the choice for teams #14 through 16 (assuming ND is #13). I’d pick Pitt as part of the other three over choices like VA, MD, UCONN, S’cuse.
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Pitt is certainly a nice brand for football, and Wanny has rebuilt the franchise, but for those who think Rutgers will be doormats and tier 3 in football, keep in mind Rutgers is 4-1 versus Pitt the last 5 years. 4-0 until last year. Both Rutgers and Pitt will be very competitive on the field with the rest of the Big Ten. I have nothing but admiration for the Pitt program but lets keep this in current perspective.
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oh @ those rare posters (and those in the mainstream media) who are suggesting that NEB’s departure from the BXII is not that big of a deal:
Zeek’s point about NEB bringing a national brand to every game is why NEB is such a loss to TX and the BXII. There is no school/team in the northern great plains who can replace NEB. Consequently, those BXII northern division games have a lot LOT less tv value and that diminishes the value of the BXII’s “inventory.”
The BXII really can’t survive as a power conference without NEB. It might survive in the way the Big East survives; but not as a power conference.
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None taken. Nothing would make me happier than a strong Big 16 so we at ND never have to hear about us going to what’s now the Big Ten ever again. Institutional fit matter, no offense, either.
@buckeyebeau
Considering that PSU only offered Pitt a 2-for-1, I’m not sure the Big Ten rates Pitt’s brand as highly as I do.
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lol… well, maybe so. I’m not hooked into the pennsylvania scuttlebutt, but I’d guess that 2 for 1 is some payback for old grudges and hard feelings dating to the early 90s. Scheduling games is one thing; conference realignment is on another scale and from what I can tell, PSU would welcome Pitt as a addition. Despite the hard feelings, I think JoePa would push it/is pushing it.
But if there are PSU/Pitt folks reading, by all means, provide some insight.
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Penn State sells out every home game at one of the largest collegiate venues, while Pitt sells out a smaller NFL stadium only when big programs such as PSU or ND visit. IIRC, the PSU athletic dept prefers (needs?) at least seven home games each season. Incidentally, Pitt hosted almost every game in the rivalry until the 1970s, after which the scheduling became more even.
It is often claimed that Paterno holds a grudge against Pitt for opposing Paterno’s proposed eastern football conference in the early 1980s. I think he has gotten over that, since Paterno has mentioned Pitt as a possible expansion candidate. I think the only school he publicly opposed for expansion was ND, saying that they had their chance already.
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There’s some hard feelings between JoePa and Pitt, especially surrounding the all-sports eastern conference that Joe tried to form but Pitt spurned in the 80’s, and then Pitt did not vote to support PSU into the bigLeast.
The scheduling issues go back as far as the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s when as many as 8 to 10 PSU-Pitt games in a row were played in Pittsburgh.
The first football chant I learned at PSU in 1979 was “PITT SUCKS!”, followed by “BEAT PITT!”. No love lost, many hard feelings between PSU and Pitt. What goes around, comes around, and has stayed around.
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Sounds like JoPa ought to be thanking his lucky stars that Pitt spurned him. Well PSU should. I’m not sure JoPa knows what conference he is playing in.
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I’ve always thought the 2-1 split for PSU-Pitt games was an indicaiton of how highly PSU thought of Pitt.
PSU simplay cannot lose to the only other top notch football program in PA (especially one in another conference) because it needs to recruit to maintain its status in the BigTen.
You have to figure the home team is going to have a marked advantage in those games and thus PSU wanted to ensure they’d win more games than not and also ensure the big time recruits keep wanting to come to PSU.
If Pitt was in the BigTen I think they’d take the tact that at least the conference is winning, even if they (PSU) are not.
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…well that and the money is rediculously more when they play at Beaver Stadium.
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The CU rumor is pure guesswork, someone hoping to be first to report. Nothing to see there at the moment.
I think the Texas and OK schools are somewhere in the Anger/Bargaining stages of grief related to Nebraska leaving. Once some time passes, they’ll realize staying in the Big 12 actually works best for them in the long run….or they’ll act now out of anger, which would be foolish.
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The fans might be in anger, but I really hope that the Regents, and the Presidents and the Athletic Directors who are all well paid and running what is a multi million dollar business are a little above that.
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I absolutely love this blog, like you’ve said, this expansion thing is a drug I haven’t been able to get enough of. Here’s my take one the new divisions (unless Texas or ND wants to join now, I’m assuming not):
—we’ll probably stick with 12
—there will be a conf champ game
—then it makes sense to have divisions
……………how do you see it it to split up the divisions?
Naturally every says East/West which we all can figure out in 6 secs:
East…….West
PSU……..Neb
OSU……..Wisc
MSU……..Iowa
Mich……..Minn
IU…………IL
Pur……….NW
Positives:
It truly follows geography.
You preserve many rivalries and they will play every years:
–power circle (OSU, PSU, Mich) of recent rivals which has been good for the conf and make it so they play every year, TV will love that. Iowa-Minn-Wisc. In state battles: IU-Pur. MSU-Mich. NW-IL.
–I set it up so if we want to use the SEC model and have a guaranteed cross-over rival, you can do that. This would bring back an annual battle for the Brown Jug, preserve the annual IU-IL battle, preserve the annual Pur-NW battle (though I don’t think either fanbase cares about that. The first 3 pairs could trade teams, I just took a stab at it with TV-appetite in mind. I know a bunch would prefer PSU-Iowa or OSU-Neb.
Negatives:
–The East will be stronger than the West in most years on paper. So did we just create the “new Big 12 South”. I’m sure Delany would prefer our auto-berth is our best team each year. With that in mind, this set up allows for a 6-2 conf team to knock off 8-0 team, which I think would be more likely to be West and East, respectively.
Given that I think they’d rather spread out the powers, the Big Ten may do the ACC model and just pick out of a bucket. I hate that. To this day I have no clue who is in the Coastal and Atlantic Divisions in the ACC. I only know UNC-Duke are in the same and FSU-Miami are opposite with the goal of having that be the CCG (which has blown up in their faces big time). So what’s another choice? Do North/South. It’s actually pretty natural, and only cheats geography a little bit.
North…..South
Mich……..OSU
MSU……..PSU
Wisc……..NW
Minn……..Pur
Neb………IL
Iowa……..IU
Positives:
–The only way it cheats geography is putting farther Nebraska in the North instead of NW. Is there a soul that cares?
–It spreads out the power really well I think. If anything you’d argue the West would usually be better on paper, but with PSU and OSU in the other side, does anybody care? Once Mich gets it going again I think this type of split makes everybody smile.
–It maintains all current annual rivalries. It let’s the Brown Jug go to annual. If we go with the one-cross-over rival-model, the first 3 preserve current ones or are logical. The last 3, I basically made up and would be new ones. Similar to the current annual NW-Pur game, I think a lot of the fan base wouldn’t care if PSU-MSU was no longer a forced annual game.
Negatives:
–the big one. The main one. The only one? “The Game” between OSU and Mich could be played in back-to-back fashion. With the way the 90’s/00’s worked out, this would have happened probably 2 of every 3 years. I don’t think that’s very appetizing. Both coaches would say they’re going to go 100% for their reg season match up, but if they’ve already clinched both divisions and both are out of the serious nat’l title race, you don’t think a game of poker will be played that will include some back up QBs. Sure the media and fans will roast them, but if it’s all about winning the conf the next week. If you want to do that, you don’t show your opponent anything the week before. Is this negative enough to put a kibosh on the whole thing?
What are your guy’s thoughts? If ND finally decides to play and we add one more you could add them to either scenario without disrupting too much, though to maintain rivals they’d already to go to a loaded East in that model (to guar games against MSU, Mich, and Pur), even more reason to go with the North/South model.
I prefer divisions as opposed to sticking with 8 games and doing what we do now, which is cycle out 2 teams every year. Without division this would become 3 and I think that really increases the odds someone misses the best 3 teams in some years and wins the conf with a very lopsided 7-1, 8-0 record.
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the east west is best (and not just because of “the game”)
there is no reason that NEB, IO and WIS cannot be consistently good and ranked
I don’t think that B10West will be the BXII north. B10 West is full of traditional and proud football powers (even if faded powers). Minny may be bad now, may have been/will be bad for many years, but at one point, MN was the best. IL has been playing football for 100 years. IOWA and Wisconsin speak for themselves.
By contrast, who’s in the BXII North: KS (basketball school), KSstate (don’t know), IOstate (who cares), Colorado (where?) and um … hmm… um … i could google, but that requires effort… lol
well, anyway, the point is that it’s okay to have tOSU, MI and PSU in the same division.
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There is no school in a notional “Big 10 West” that, with the right coach, the right investment of resources, and the right approach to recruiting cannot be a national power. Minnesota in a new stadium, Illinois with a good associate HC who can coach up Zook’s recruits, to name just two.
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FWIW, Northwestern has a winning record against every team in the proposed Big Ten West since ’95 (except for an 0-1 against Nebraska).
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It’ll be East-West…And believe me, the Big 10 West with Nebraska, Iowa, Wisconsin and Minnesota will be tough. Okay, maybe not the Gophers, but they are always in there messing things up. Not to mention that Illinois and Northwestern have been good to better from time to time.
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Big 10ers more familiar with the benefits of the CIC than I:
Someone who claims to have a research background (and I have no reason to doubt that he’d be telling the truth about that) came by my most recent post to criticize (in a good way) my assumption that the CIC really would be as beneficial as I have been claiming it would be.
Anyone care to take a shot to refute/substantiate what he’s saying? It’s an interesting side-debate, one way or the other.
http://www.burntorangenation.com/2010/6/7/1505152/realignment-chronicles-larry-scott#39426044
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I don’t think you can really accurately measure the tangible benefits of CIC membership.
I’ve seen articles that have stated that Penn State was well behind the Big Ten in terms of median pay, conditions, etc. for researchers and is now right in the middle of the group.
The CIC isn’t directly bringing in the $ but it makes the schools more likely to get research contracts due to the fact that it is one of the more comprehensive alliances. Everything it does is a small step in the right direction as it were. Coursesharing, library digitizing, bulk purchasing agreements, etc.
As I noted above, it also has tended to have a standardizing effect across the schools in terms of pay/facilities/etc. because the schools are much more actively engaged in an arms race with each other and with schools outside of the CIC.
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Zeek summarized it pretty well, but if you were looking for the details, here’s an article that covers a) how Nebraska will/may reap academic benefits when it moves to the Big Ten, i.e. Virology researchers at Nebraska wanting to partner w/those at Wisconsin and Northwestern, and b) how joining the Big Ten has benefited Penn State academically:
http://www.omaha.com/article/20100609/NEWS01/706099919
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This isn’t about research, but … I have a friend/colleague who teaches in the School of Music at PSU; she was there when they joined the B10 and is still there. At that time, PSU evidently undertook a campus-wide benchmarking process to compare themselves to programs at the rest of the B10. The issue wasn’t necessarily “What should we do to come up to a particular standard” but my friend said the benchmarking was very helpful to them. PSU had then, as it does now (until NE joins), the smallest School of Music in the B10, but they were able to get some things they had been needing for some time as a result of the benchmarking. This may seem trivial compared to CIC issues, but it is one example of what happens when a school joins a conference for reasons other than purely sports-related and does so intelligently.
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Okay, I don’t think my previous comment ended up going through properly, so I’m posting it again just to be safe:
Zeek summarized the benefits really well, but if you were looking for specifics, here’s a nice article that goes into the details of how a) Nebraska may/will reap academic benefits, i.e. Nebraska’s Virology researchers wanting to partner w/those at Wisconsin and Northwestern, and b) how joining the Big Ten has benefited Penn State academically: http://www.omaha.com/article/20100609/NEWS01/706099919
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Adding. Its getting harder and harder to bill clients.
Frank – from a guy who watches Olympic hockey every 30 years, congrats on your Blackhawks winning the Stanley Cup. Chicago is a great sports town and deserves many more championships than its teams have delivered.
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adding once again
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http://collegesportsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/06/baylor-tech-now-part-of-meeting-with-ut.html
Double secret meeting now has Baylor and Tech. Possible scenarios:
A&M wants to go to SEC, Baylor brought in as substitute for Pac-16.
Texas and A&M have brought the kiddos to tell them that they are leaving for the Big Ten.
Texas and A&M forgot the super secret location part and Kenneth Star crashed the party.
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What in the world is going on?
Perhaps this was all a feint to get into the SEC in which case A&M played its hand brilliantly.
I still have to think Stanford/Cal will balk at the addition of Baylor to the Pac-16 slate.
And who gets left out now, OSU?
Now’s when you want to fasten the seatbelts if there’s going to be wheeling and dealing…
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Another possible scenario, they’re actually trying to salvage the B12.
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@loki_the_bubba – Possible. It continues to perplex me why Texas would want that outside of some amorphous notion of “control”, but it’s possible. Regardless, it shows that the Pac-16 deal isn’t necessarily a slam dunk.
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That makes a lot more sense that a solution which requires Texas to allow itself to be saddled with both the Tech Problem and the Baylor Problem while A&M gets away scot-free.
Especially since, if the SEC gets A&M, that would be an odd number, and we know who the even number would be. And that makes the package Texas would bring with it to the west that much less attractive to all parties.
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Why would Texas even want to go West without both?
Thinking about it, Texas wanted to be in a conference with 4 brand names: Texas/A&M/Oklahoma/Nebraska.
They lost Nebraska. The second best option is the new SWC with the other three brands.
Losing 2 of the remaining 3 means they’re the only ones trudging west.
In that case, what options do they really have other than trying to roll this thing back or forcing a political solution on A&M by bringing in Tech and Baylor and Perry (if he has any power at all over this…).
Going to the Big Ten may even become more preferable since they could stay with Nebraska even though that’s not really of that much value to them…
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Zeek,
You are spot on, pal! The point is that U of Texas’ options are narrowing down very fast. Ta&m does not want to be in the Pac 10! Ta&m has always seen itself as a southern school and wants in the SEC.
UT is losing its dancing partners very quickly. And thus UT is losing its options. UT has to be very apprehensive now of the ultimate outcome. They may go independent, but that is a high risk scenario. UT is running scared.
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Could UT’s plans for their own network be at play here? I believe the SEC made it known UT would be able to keep the LSN as an incentive for coming over, but there are all the noted objections to that option. If the Pac-16 option is followed with a BTN-style tv contract does that put limits on broadcasting rights for the LSN? If so… and the LSN is projected to be a huge cash cow, is saving the BigXII in any form the best possible option for UT? Political coverage is provided for the Texas brethren and the LSN can get rolling without restriction.
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Hop – if the A&M comes alone to the SEC, Florida State would be the logical choice to balance East and West and stand pat at 14. SEC gets a national draw in FSU, and coloful tradition and big state with A&M.
FSU leaving the ACC doesn’t cause it to implode, they just go get Syracuse to replace it.
Tech and Baylor problem solved for UTx, but Stanford & Cal go crazy.
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Agreed – without A&M it’s a toss-up whether OU would stay with Texas to go to an untested Pac16 or head for the more sure thing of an expanding SEC. The SEC move would become far more attractive if there were any perception of risk at all that UT could change its mind and go north.
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@loki
“Another possible scenario, they’re actually trying to salvage the B12.”
That’s an entirely reasonable explanation that did not at all occur to me. I am totally in “grab the marshmallows” mode with the Big 12.
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The fact that Baylor and Tech have been invited makes me think this explanation is close to the top of the list.
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Go back and look at the original link. Story has been updated to say that it is in fact ONLY Texas and TAMU (no TT or Baylor) at the meeting.
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I think that is totally possible. The Big 12 only needs to add 2 schools to replace CU and Nebraska.
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Loki,
That’s what I believed at the beginning and I am starting to get a sense of right now. The Big 12 is UT’s own little Petri Dish to grow whatever it wants with whatever it wants…If it can get the TLN off the ground, it might survive. It being the Big 12. At least UT can play with it for 5 years and see what develops. Then, if they decide to shitcan the whole thing, what have they really lost? Everyone will still be waiting with open arms.
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My personal preference is for A&M to go to the SEC. If that allows Baylor to slide into the Pac 16 deal, or tag along with us to the SEC, that’s fine by me. Everyone gets taken care of in that scenario, so the politicians could have no complaint. Seems to me that only party that wouldn’t like it is UT. I’ll give A&M President Bowen Loftin and AD Bill Byrne credit for keeping a poker face through this whole thing if they can pull something like that off.
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Kenneth Starr crashing a party? hes never had a history of that??? :- )
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Just hired to clean up Clinton’s blue dress mess, so to speak
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SEC making a play?
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The fact Baylor and Tech got invited speaks VOLUMES at this point means a whole lot of lobbying. I think the scenario of aTm and Baylor to SEC and Tech and UT just got a lot more credence. No need to invite Baylor and Tech to the party to tell Baylor sorry sucks to be you.
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Go back and look at the original link. Story has been updated to say that it is in fact ONLY Texas and TAMU (no TT or Baylor) at the meeting.
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http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?SID=901&fid=57&style=2&tid=143839427&Page=3
Purple Book Cat is at it again.
“I do have somewhat of an update as of this morning. I say somewhat because it depends not on the Big Ten itself, but on a number of non-Big Ten schools. This whole process (the expansion strategies, not the message board banter) is absolutely fascinating.
So let me first say that the Big Ten is aware of the original message board thread and believes that it has played a role in bringing about the discussions to where they are now, for better or worse. My friend has kept me in the loop continuously, and as of this point there are some things, if disclosed, that can hurt the negotiation process for the Big Ten. There are others that can help. And I’m a low-risk outlet for information because I have no credibility (other than the 30,000 page views primarily from large southern and eastern states – to you I say thank you for giving Northwestern a moment to occupy the center of the college football world. I believe this will become more commonplace in the future as Pat Fitzgerald continues to build a program of excellence in Evanston.) (One other thing: Northwestern owns justIowa. Remember that.)
The “somewhat” update is two parts, as follows: some very interesting things are happening in the Big East right now. If I said anything more about that, it would jeopardize the position of the Big Ten, so suffice it to say that this depends on the status of that school in South Bend.
The second thing is that after the hasty entry of Nebraska, the Big Ten presidents are less unified on letting schools of questionable academic merits into the conference. In fact, blocs of voting Big Ten members have emerged in support of and in opposition to certain schools becoming admitted into the conference. This relates to the first part in that disclosures of the schools in discussion would jeopardize the position of the Big Ten.
Sorry for the “somewhat” update, but things will become clear soon enough. For now, keep your eyes on South Bend and Austin.
– PBC
P.S. Hey Lou, do I get a commission for driving all this traffic to your site?”
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Clearly Missouri has run head on into opposition…
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Oh, and I would bet anything that Michigan is at the heart of the Missouri opposition.
In any case, looking East is far more interesting.
I actually think Syracuse may be the hold up in all of this. Syracuse may have AAU, but it doesn’t really have the chops in research for that AAU to be much more than a relic. The Big Ten presidents already know this, so if Notre Dame is saying it wants Syracuse, that may be troublesome…
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Um, I think you have it backwards. ND isn’t saying, “We’ll come, but only if you also take Syracuse with us.” Rather, the B10 probably thinks (and maybe correctly) that ND will capitulate if the B10 takes a sufficient # of BE schools to blow up the BE . . . but that is causing a split among the B10 presidents.
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A good point.
I really hope that’s not true though…
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Well, of course it’s Michigan blocking Missourri…I mean, look at those ridiculous “M’s” on Mizzou’s helmet’s and tell me you want that in the Big 10?
Seriously, I had several doubts about Mizzou all along. Granted, big school, decent football tradition, history, etc, but something just never sat well with me when discussing Mizzou. But I kept following the data on this site as far as revenue, TV sets, Etc. and started to believe it.
Not saying Mizzou will never happen, just thinking that there will be better Big 12 opportunities in the VERY NEAR FUTURE, which I’m sure everyone at the voting level is thinking as well.
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MIRuss – If Michigan has a problem with Mizzou’s “M” on the helmet, make the Big Ten invite condition upon Mizzou adopting the Cincy Bengal’s tiger stripe helmet design.
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@zeek: Just curious, why do you think Michigan is the primary school opposed to Missouri?
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Michigan is traditional and it was one of the shcools that tried to stop PSU from joining. I believe, but I don’t have any evidence whatsoever to support my belief, that the University of Michigan thinks their brand brings in a lot of the Big 10 money and that by splitting it up any more, further dilutes their contribution. But, it’s kind of like the Yankees in Baseball: To be great, you need to have some good teams around you. It’s just the way it is. You want healthy competition in order to prove to the world that you are as good as you claim.
Michigan is Michigan. It’s just the way it is….
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Because the Michigan administration has historically been among the most tradition minded, even when it came to bringing Penn State in, as I recall, they were the primary ones opposed.
I’ve always viewed Ohio State as the one pushing for change and Michigan as pulling back in terms of their relationship. Having those two split up on things like expansion as they did when Penn State was being considered, and it seems now that Gordon Gee is taking the lead on it in some fashion, allows the other schools to vote one way or another easily (not that they’d really care if both Michigan and Ohio State were in favor of a specific school or something, everyone’s self-interested).
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Zeek, I’m ashamed of you. Your first word in a response to a post about the NW guy is “clearly”? 🙂
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I just inhaled my beverage through my nose with that comment.
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While everyone is talking about Missouri, I thought this was a last ditch effort to take Texas Tech that has failed.
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(Don’t let Swarbrick see this post…). Well I think the point is more that the Big Ten is telling Notre Dame that we’re about to blow up the Big East.
But we actually aren’t because no one wants to admit Syracuse, so only Rutgers/Pitt. would come and ND might stay in that situation…
ND might only be willing to join if there’s a real threat that the Big Ten takes Syracuse/Rutgers/Pitt.
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I took this to also mean that a number of Big East schools – apart from Notre Dame – are fighting an up-hill battle.
Nebraska´s first in and we already have national columnists calling the Big 10 hypocrites for all the talk about academics. I think Nebraska fares better in the research department than it does in the US News rankings, but that doesn´t necessarily change public perception. And at this point, I think we hold out for some of the academic home runs (ND, UT, A&M, Maryland, UVa, UNC, Duke).
From that perspective, I´m not sure where that leaves Rutgers – I´m not sure the national media would see that as an academic addition – but it may help Pitt, in the case that the more strategic additions fall through.
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Pitt is one of those schools that probably has a block of schools in favor, i.e. Michigan/Penn State/Wisconsin, but the smaller schools might be balking on it…
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Academically RU >> ND and TAMU. It is a little behind UT, and on a par with Pitt. It is somewhat behind Duke, UMd, and UNC. From a research perspective it is significantly better than UVa, but the is no question about UVa’s academic brand overall, especially as an undergraduate institution.
Short answer RU is very desirable academically. Remember the USNWR ratings are a joke and will not be the standards used by the Big Ten presidents to evaluate the academic chops for the expansion candidates.
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This means to me one of two things:
1) Notre Dame could be trying to enter the BigEast where they would be the big fish in a small pond and control things (like Texas in the Big12). This is risky, though, because the BigEast is in constant danger of being blown up (again similar to the Big12).
or 2) Notre Dame is now in discussions with the Big10 about which teams to bring along with them, and they are trying to work out ND’s choice with the Big10 Presidents who already feel they bent over in bringing in Nebraska.
Or neither could be true; but seems like a strong possibility.
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So here is a question:
Does this enter Vanderbilt into the talks? It is southern (closer to Texas) and private (like Notre Dame) and excellent acedemically.
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Texas, A&M, ND and Vanderbilty would be a great BTN Southern Pod. I’d take it over SouthwestPac16.
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I doubt it. ND would have little interest in taking the prestige hit of joining the Big East of all football conferences. I don’t care how much they would prefer to save the league for the other non-football schools.
Because of their preference in trying to save the hybrid model, I seriously doubt they would be complicit in selecting which football schools to take and thus destroying the league.
But that’s pure speculation on my part.
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I think NDx2 had it right–doubt that BT and ND are in negotiations…BT may be bluffing that it will blow BE up by taking 3 BE schools, which BT presidents probably don’t want….ND says show me, and we’ll talk.
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It’s clear that the only way the Big 10 is going to get ND is to make it think it won’t have a seat when the music stops. You get ND by attacking the Big East, but how do you get them without taking marginal schools?
My initial response is to attack the ACC for a few home run candidates, which would lead to the collapse of the Big East as they try to swell their ranks. The Northwestern poster didn’t mention the ACC, so I’m not quite certain.
Taking UVa and Maryland (if they’re on the table), would lead to the ACC taking a Rutgers, Pitt or Syracuse (maybe more if they go beyond 12). Once they get down to 6 or less football schools, the hybrid system breaks down and the Big East becomes a basketball only conference.
Result: Two academic homeruns (UVa and Maryland) and ND in the fold. One spot left for Texas (A&M to the SEC, anyone?).
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Boulder Daily Camera just broke a story saying CU is in the PAC with an 11am presser scheduled for 11am tomorrow.
http://www.dailycamera.com/news/ci_15268160
Looks like Colorado did end up being the first official domino. Now we’ll have to see if the SEC is willing to swallow all four TX schools to make their play, and if TX might be forced by politics to accept.
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gah…stupid no edit
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I really hope this is true for your sake, SuperD!
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Thanks…my main concern through all of this is making sure we have a safe place and the PAC should be stable for us as a long term place where I think we can thrive. You know your program has gone through a severely rough period when you’re fighting for legitimacy with Baylor.
Now I’m hoping UT can fend off the SEC wolves as I think the PAC getting to a solid 16 may be our best hope for a legitimate playoff. SEC with Texas is just ridiculous and too many alpha dogs, plus doesn’t really get what the Aggies want which is a fresh start out of UT’s shadow.
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ESPN confirming, per “BREAKING NEWS” alert at bottom of screen.
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P10 Commissioner Larry Scott is confirming.
“This is an historic moment for the Conference, as the Pac-10 is poised for tremendous growth,” commissioner Larry Scott said in a statement.
“The University of Colorado is a great fit for the Conference both academically and athletically and we are incredibly excited to welcome Colorado to the Pac-10.
That’s even more official than UNL.
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Pac-10 press release on Colorado joining is up:
http://www.pac-10.org/genrel/061010aaa.html
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“Pac-10 press release on Colorado joining is up:
http://www.pac-10.org/genrel/061010aaa.html”
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
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http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5271438
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This could end up falling just as The BT wants it. I mean getting their either ND Or TX. If the Pac Ten original 6 is dead and A&M goes to the SEC then the BT get Texas. Which may get ND off its arse.
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@Hopkins Horn
Just how much in play is a Texas -> SEC scenario.
Sure they’re not “ruling it out” but I thought TPTB were just using it as a bargaining chip in a sense… at least that’s what most Longhorn watchers have implied.
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It’s not in play. At most, it’s a bargaining chip. More likely, we’re humoring (probably in cahoots with the A&M admin and TX politicos) a small segment of sports-oriented Aggie Regents who want the SEC move.
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So does this mean that the Colorado board or regents (or whatever they are called there) held a double secret meeting since their secret meeting got crashed by the media?
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Great article welcoming Nebraska to the Big Ten
http://www.the-ozone.net/football/2010/summer/nebraskawelcome.htm
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OK put some odds on one of these possibilities….
a) We have just seen a Texas 2 step – The Big 12 stays together less Nebraska & Colorado? (if Colorado has $$ issues maybe only Nebraska goes – Now Texas has the Power with out Nebraska at their heels).
b) A&M comes out – A&M goes to the SEC, and TX, TT, OU, OSU, CU, and Baylor/SMU/Rice/UHigh find a home in the Pac 16. I am looking at you loki
c) SEC gets Texas 4 (UT/A&M/TT/BU/SMU/Rice/UHigh – pick 4)
d) Big 10 gets Texas 4 (same as above)
show your work for extra credit
🙂
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My guesses…..
a) 25% I think the B12 is completely beyond salvage at this point, too many predators sniffing around their camp. But, TX could hold the rest of them together if they wanted.
b) 35% This is my highest probability right now. In that scenario, I also think Mizzou gets an SEC invite if the B10 doesn’t take them.
c) 5% Texas isn’t going to the SEC due to the academic issues related to athletes. When the B12 was formed, TX got them to severely restrict partial qualifiers (Nebraska was on the other side of the issue), and this was a big point of contention. So, I can’t see them going to the SEC where the standards are even more lax.
d) 5% Can’t see the B10 taking on any of those except for TX and A&M. I don’t think the B10 will be strongarmed into taking on welfare kids just to get the big boys.
e) other 30%
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Since Frank used math at the beginning of this whole thing, I’m going to get jiggy with some numbers.
For the Big 12, the value of the conference is generously 12.
Texas=3
OU and NU=2 each
Kansas, Colorado, Mizzou, aTm, Tech, OSU=1 each
Baylor, ISU, KSU=1 all together
By losing CU and NU, the league’s value is now 9…split among 10 teams. That means that everyone is losing money, money that wasn’t as good as the Big 10/SEC to begin with! Adding Air Force and BYU, wouldn’t even equal one new team. Even if they did, you’d still be looking at a value of 10 teams split over 12 schools. There is no way that the Big 12 can stay together.
I still cannot imagine that Texas wants to go to the SEC. The SEC cannot act though until that door is shut. Therefore, Texas and aTm get to make their move. A shrewd move for aTm would be to go solo to the SEC. It would put Texas in a rough place. At that point, THEY would be pressured to follow. I don’t see this happening though. I think Texas and aTm move in harmony, either to the Big 10 or PAC10. Once that takes place, the SEC can proceed.
If OU/Tech/OkSt are on the table, I think the SEC could grab them and secure new markets handily in Texas. Going back to my math, OU is a “2” so they’d “carry” the deal for those old Big 12 three.
One more math equation before I turn in my paper for a grade…
Because of the popularity of the SEC in Texas/Southeast, I think when it comes to TV viewership in Texas….
Texas/aTm + Big 10 = Tech/OkSt/OU + SEC
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Speaking to your last point on Texas viewership, I think you’re a little off, but only a little.
A&M+Tech+OU+SEC > Texas+Big10. Both get tier 1 cable in DFW, HOU, SA, AUS.
A&M+Texas+Big10 > Tech+OU+SEC. Both still get tier 1 cable in DFW, HOU, SA, AUS.
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Maybe this is simply all about brands. As a university, you either have a brand from an athletic standpoint or an academic one – or both. And on the athletic front your brand is developed by your football program to most extent, then basketball or in some cases just your overall sports programs. Certain schools have both (Stanford, Mich, Texas, ND and Vandy).
Johns Hopkins is a lacrosse national power, but no one will confuse it with an athletic school – it is clearly an academic one. Nebraska is a great athletic school (considering its football brand – it probably does well elsewhere). No one will ever say it is a great academic institution. Stanford, Michigan, Texas (to some degree), and ND have both.
So if I’m the B10, I want a school that brings one or the other and if possible both. Looking at proposed targets we can tell which schools bring one or the other:
Mizzou – neither
Md – IMO neither, but maybe somewhat on both sides
UNC – both, but athletics on the small side with bball
UVA – academics, small athletics
Rutgers – neither
Kansas – athletics on the small side with bball
Syracuse – small side on both sides
Pitt – small on both sides
Vandy – academics and small athletics
A&M – small athletics
Just a different way of doing an expansion index. Clearly, by this standard UT and ND are the top gets.
Tech does not bring either. I’m not sure MD does. UVA/UNC I believe do. Vandy does. Rutgers does not. Mizzou does not (Kansas does over Mizzou).
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That was kind of a jumbled post. I don’t want to imply that a school doesn’t have good academics or athletics – it is a perception thing. Mizzou may be a fine academic institution, but no one is going to call it a public ivy. Baylor people talk about all the B12 championships it has one, which is all well and good, but no one will consider it an athletic powerhouse.
It is all about marketing. B10 should get a school it can market. Mizzou does not, Rutgers does not.
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Yeah, but if UVA/UNC are off the table then what?
And I’m not really sure the brands thing is as clear as it sounds.
Yes, you need national brands.
But, you also need “footprint brands.” That is, a school that can capture its state/TV markets if the local interest is there and the national brands are coming to town.
Syracuse will never really have that one in terms of the New York TV markets. Rutgers has the potential to do it in New Jersey, and Maryland can and somewhat does do it. Mizzou does it as well as Maryland.
Texas is so valuable because it does both. Total capture of Texas and a national brand all in one.
Notre Dame is entirely a national brand with no footprint base.
Vandy is Notre Dame without a national brand.
Kansas has a footprint brand, but it’s national brand is basketball which is almost irrelevant for this discussion.
Pitt. has a small footprint brand and a semi-national brand, probably on the level of an Iowa/Wisconsin.
A&M has a larger footprint brand than Pitt. and it too is a semi-national brand around the level of Iowa/Wisconsin but maybe closer to Nebraska. The problem is it’s always second to UT so its brand is never the primary Texas brand…
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My point being – are we overvaluing footprint brands? UT we all agree brings everything. I agree with you on Kansas – it has an athletic brand in bball. It is basically the equivalent of Neb, the only difference Neb is a lone school, and oh yeah Neb is to football what Kansas is to bball. Football is clearly the most valuable. I think your equation of Pitt to Wisc/Iowa is spot on.
What will deliver the NY market more, being the preeminent athletic/academic conference or having Rutgers. Same goes for Mizzou, what will deliver Mizzou more. I submit to you it is the former.
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Sure.
The optimal conference configuration is to stop after you get the best brands, i.e. 14 with Nebraska/Texas/ND.
The one thing that Rutgers and Maryland allow you to do though is staging big games in NYC or D.C.
That’s something extra that they bring to supplement the national brands, i.e. Texas/A&M/ND/Nebraska.
So I think Rutgers and Maryland are less easily dismissed as mere footprint brands. They happen to have a location advantage to their footprints. Right on the east coast between the NYC-D.C. area. Those are media markets that the national brands can tap, but physically bringing the national brands there helps as well…
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Your perception of academic rankings is quite blurry. This has been rehashed many times already. I’ll slot the schools against their position in the current Big Ten:
MO – below bottom
UMd – upper half
UNC – upper half
UVa – upper half (but lower half on pure research grounds)
RU – at the midpoint
KU – below bottom
Syr – bottom
Pitt – midpoint
TAMU- somewhat above bottom
Vandy – upper half
ND — below bottom
UT — a bit above the midpoint
This will help to explain the issues MO is having and why KU and Syr are hard sells. TAMU is actually decent and perhaps just as important they have been improving significantly over the last decade plus.
If NE and ND are in, improving the academic profile of the expansion is important. Getting UMd, UNC(very hard), UVa, would be very good. RU and PITT are solid choices, indeed they may well be the best available academic schools.
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I’m personally getting a little tired of people mixing up “academics” with research. Two totally different things. Like I said before, ARWU has a school like Cincinnati quite a bit ahead of a school like Georgetown. There is some kid in Asia who got accepted to both and is going to choose Cincinnati based on ARWU rankings. Think about that. The only thing Cin should rank higher over Georgetown is maybe amount of toilets on campus.
I’ve personally never met anyone who was impressed with a B10 education minus Northwestern, Illinois, and Michigan (Purdue too, I guess). Sure, if you’re a grad student working on particle acceleration at Wisconsin (whatever their specialty is), that’s pretty impressive. But fact is the average person isn’t getting a graduate degree in particle acceleration.
I guess whoever here said that the Northeast values private education more was on to something. There’s no way, in my mind, that Rutgers is a better school than ND (again, unless you’re studying something like particle acceleration). Rutgers is a great school. Very old. But … no.
/rant off
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jeepers,
as a cincy alum, let me clarify your point. UC has a top CCM (music – see also Juilliard) and DAA (art – see also Pratt) but are not the “research” equal to say purdue. If you are a kid in Asia and music or art is what you want, then you go to cincy. if you are a kid in Asia and you think law is what you want to do then georgetown will be your choice. with friends and family at cincy, gtown, and purdue I would say none of them made their choice on how many toilets they had on campus.
For sake of this blog, it is simple enough to note the difference between “education” and “research” lest anybody on here think the Big 10 is just full of snooty people.
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I think Nebraska’s addition may sink Pitt’s chances. Nebraska may take the one slot for “lack of TVs”. If Delaney still hopes to add ND (which he does), there is another non-footprint add. I understand that ND and Nebraska both have other huge pluses, but I think there are a limited number of slots that don’t expand the footprint.
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That’s a point that hasn’t really been made, and it may end up carrying the day.
If you really look at the options in the Big East, the focus is on Rutgers/Syracuse and then maybe Maryland from the ACC. You also have Mizzou as a footprint addition being considered.
But Mizzou and Syracuse are likely to run into opposition on the academic front since Mizzou is effectively another Nebraska academically and Syracuse has less than 1/2 the research funding of Notre Dame…
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Once Frank started talking about NU being considered, that was my thought as well. NU and Pitt are mutually exclusive. Also NU’s football history makes Pitt’s less important (as it would be if 12/13/14 were Pitt, Rutgers and Syracuse).
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LOVE vs HATE: today is setting me crazy
LOVE: Nebraska in Big 10
HATE: Izzo in Cleveland
LOVE: Stanley Cup in Chicago
HATE: Kansas (and possibly Missouri) are SOL
how is today going for you guys.. i am hitting overload..
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LOVE – World Cup starting Tomorrow
LOVE – To get tickets to see Strauburger
HATE – Cubs crappy season
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Hard to keep track of everything going on today, and especially with these comments. But the old link posted somewhere in the mess above…
http://collegesportsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/06/baylor-tech-now-part-of-meeting-with-ut.html
Now says A&M and UT are meeting alone…no longer with baylor and tech.
So it was A&M and UT, then all four, now the original two again.
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Roll back the SEC welcome parades for the moment. Texas is still trying to figure out whether the Big 12 is worth saving.
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Could be A&M heading to SEC. Texas heading to BT.
Joint message to other two that you are SOL.
Political compromise could be that UT and A&M each guarantee games @TT and @BU which would help those two schools land spots in the MWC which has its own network.
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BTW, the MWC could be a huge winner in all of this.
Getting not only the Big12’s AQ status but also expansion to 16 teams, new markets.
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Other sources are saying that UT and A&M will meet first, then confer with Baylor and Tech later. Who really knows?
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Right now on RC Slocum’s ranch, Big Twelve Oaks, aTm is threatening to secede. Could start a Texas civil war, birthing another goofball Aggie euphemism, The War of Longhorn Aggression.
This really should be playing every time aTm to the SEC is discussed:
So we’ll could see another failed chapter from The Prodigal Aggie. Just listen to their delusion contingent: they’re going SEC and will win the recruiting wars, becoming nat’l champs, and never lose to tu again. The same blather we here before every Independence Bowl. “Secede and we’ll soon eclipse them! The North, er Horns, will fold within months! Gentlemen always fight better than rabble!”
So please, go. We understand. No more excuses Junior, no more living in Daddy’s basement, you won’t be able to blame TX anymore. Though you still will, especially when you again get busted for going all Jackie Sherrill. I do hope you succeed in the SEC (“Someday we’ll find a unicorn!”) as that would make our Thanksgiving victories even more impressive. But if you don’t win in your first 2 SEC years, it will implode and a conference championship will never happen.
For the rest of us, we’ll boost our SOS by replacing aTm with UH or Utah. Hey Pac 10, here comes the Big Twelve Hillbillies!
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They wont have A&M to kick around any more!?!
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“As Gawd is my witness, I’ll never lose conference again!”
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I actually think that it would be smart as hell for A&M to go to the SEC and get away from Texas.
A&M goes to SEC with the crazy and intense SEC fan base.
Texas goes to the Pac 16 with Baylor, Texas Tech, ETC. and their fair weather fan base.
PAC 16 has no championship game so all Texas has to do is beat the also-rans / hangers-on before a bowl birth.
Texas A&M has exciting tv games every weekend on CBS…. LSU, Alabama, Tennesee.
Texas plays Baylor, Texas Tech, and Washington State on the Longhorn sports network.
Texas would be hurt in that senario, is that why there is so much panic in Chip Browns tweets?
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You are correct sir! There is a real opportunity for TX A&M to grow up out of the Texas shadow and shine in the SEC. That with no really big expectations to grow exponentially as an academic institution. It might look like a really great deal in 12 years for A&M.
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“I seem to be spoiling everybody’s brandy, cigars, and dreams of victory.”
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StvInILL,
was that in reference to the famous Nixon quote?
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Yes, I know, you hear with your ears here. No preview option.
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adding
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Feels like this playing out pretty much as we might have expected. UT & A&M are doing the prudent thing — collecting the best offers from PAC-10, Big-10 and SEC. Then deciding collectively or separately what works best for them. They have all the power, they might as well use it intelligently. Once they decide, the conferences and schools respond accordingly.
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I think our Northwestern friend is trying to tell us that the Big East is about to give Notre Dame an ultimatum. W/out ND, the Big 10 leaves the BE alone and stops at 14 (or 16 w/ the Texas two). Notre Dame helps the Big East in lots of sports, but why on earth would they keep ND around if doing so meant their conference was going to get blown up.
Ditch ND add KS and KSU – a good f’in move by the Big East. Also limits options for the ACC and SEC.
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Why would kansas and kansas state join the Big East. They would stick out like a sore thumb! I believe their best move after the big xii breaks up is to head for the mwc. Iff the MWC picks up those two schools, boise state, and maybe missouri (who seems to be on the outside looking in) they are not only a force in basketball but an automatic bcs qualifier. I also read somewhere that the MWC already has their own network…I do not know any details though.
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Actually, that makes perfect sense. ND will never join BE in football.
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If this what’s happening I like the move. ND is bad mojo at this point. Adding KSU and KU along with a “Nobody is leaving this conference unless they are in body bag” to the schools thinking about jumping is a great strategic play and keeps the BE as one of the power conferences going forward. Ready for some BE basketball if that’s the case.
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I’m not sure what kind of ultimatum you mean. Do you mean an ultimatum to swear a blood oath that ND isn’t joining the B10? (If so, that might be doable.) But if it’s an ultimatum to join the BE in football, then forget it. Villanova, Georgetown, and Seton Hall have exactly no leverage to exact that sort of ultimatum, among other problems.
Furthermore, if the BE blows up and ND is still standing as an independent, who do you think they’re going to join with in basketball and baseball? You got it: Georgetown, Seton Hall, ‘Nova, et al.
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NDx2: Do you worry about the fact that Swarbrick and Jenkins have not finally said non means no? The fact they haven’t, to me, means they are negotiating their place in the Big Ten. Otherwise they would just come out and say no. No? Why would they be silent and drag everyone through this if in fact they are signing up? You folks in the nation must be irate by now. I would.
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Which is why I floated the idea of the BigEast surviving and actually having ND join its conference.
The BigEast ceasing to exist as a football conference only make ND’s ability to remain an independant a more viable option.
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Colorado to the P10 is now in an official press release from the P10.
http://www.pac-10.org/genrel/061010aaa.html
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And the most interesting part of that statement by far is
“The University of Colorado is a perfect match – academically and athletically – with the Pac-10,” said University of Colorado President Bruce D. Benson, “our achievements and aspirations match those of the universities in the conference and we look forward to a productive relationship.”
I wonder what Tech and OSU are going to say…
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is the money the same? Will the check clear?
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Guys, There’s still another shoe to drop. We’re still playing double check-mate chess! The next shoe to drop is the SEC offer. The SEC is not going to sit tight and let the state of Texas get taken over by their rivals.
My guess is that the SEC will offer Ta&m and one other of either OK, OSU, or T-Tech spots in the SEC. Why? We all know that the Texas market is the key battle ground for both revenue and recruits. I don’t think anyone would argue that given the Pac 10 offer and the possible Big Ten response posted on the Northwestern page.
For the SEC Texas A&M is the key school. Why? It gives the SEC enough of the Texas market to get into the cable networks. We know that A&M has always felt that it was a “southern school” and A&M WANTS to be in the Sex Conference (I mean SEC). Getting a school into your conference that actually WANTS to JOIN is key. See for example, Nebraska v ND in the Big Ten and the fact that the Pac 10 offer isn’t really Texas’ first pick. I’m betting that A&M, Oklahoma and OSU really don’t see themselves as West Coast schools, but they can see themelves playing a SEC scheduel. U of Texas wants no part of that per all the reasons stated on this blog.
So now we need to sit back and see what the SEC offer is going to be. This may “free up” Texas to join the Big Ten without any baggage. Remember Jim Delaney only wants U of Texas….U of Texas fits into the Big Ten much like Nebraska does, Texas A&M … not so much and Tech not at all.
GREAT BLOG, Frank, and all the contributors here. I’m an Iowa alum and Big Ten fan although I went to grad school at U of Florida and live in Florida. So I suppose I fit the “move south” demographics laid out by Jim Delaney.
We have to wait for the SEC more now….
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Great point. Now the question is, does the SEC make a sweeping (and rather desperate, if you ask me) move like the PAC 10 did? Do they offer UT, aTm, OU, and (Tech or OkSt)? Or do they simply lure aTm away (as rumors have swirled) and let the chips fall where they may?
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all,
i think they have benefitted by waiting..
they can cherry pick A&M, and send the rest of the schools to the pac 16, while holding 3 Open slots for future expansion.
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Thanks allthatyoucan…
The SEC is not desperate, like the Pac 10. All the SEC needs is lock up one Texas school to crack that market. If A&M joins the SEC this will make 13 schools in the SEC. The SEC can then add and eastern school (Miami, Clemson, West Virginia) to round out to 14 schools.
The PAC 10 move was one of desperation, it looks like they picked up Colorado, but everyone has been forecasting that move for months. The Texas schools don’t want to be an eastern appendage of the Pac 10 and the Pac is going to get played here.
One point that no one has made here is that Texas is not in the drivers seat now. The U of Texas has the very real possibility of come out the loser in all of this. U of T would love to have the Big XII back, but not “all the king horses” can put it back together again.
U of T is rightfully running scared now.
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Um, no we’re not.
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Hopkins Horn,
Don’t get me wrong, UT is a super school, great academics, super athletics, big research dollars. But, it seems to me that the way things are unfolding here is just not in Texas’ favor. Nebraska and Colorado have abandoned them and aTm and possibly OK will be next to jump ship and get on the SEC bandwagon. We all know that Texas will not follow them.
Texas is losing it’s dancing partners pretty quickly here. Unless UT’s primary desire is to go to the Big Ten (alone) then it’s options are getting squeezed pretty tight.
UT is a super great school and will do great wherever it lands, but it’s options are getting narrowed down quickly, no?
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UT can get into the Big 10 if it wants. UT can get into the SEC if it wants. UT can make a Pac 12-16 scenario work in a number of ways. It’s still the furthest school from being out of options.
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hawkeye,
i asked that in an earlier post (where OU,A&M and OSU or TT went to the SEC first (leaving only 1 slot before the SEC got to 16). I do not know if they are running scared, but I do agree that such an option does force some issues
a) SEC gets A&M, OU, OSU
b) Pac 16 gets UT, TT, CU, KU and maybe baylor and rice
texas is “forced” to the Pac 16 in the end, as keeping the Big 12 together no longer is an option. That or they get “forced” to the SEC (assuming the SEC offer is TX, A&M, TT, and Baylor/rice/smu etc.
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Duffman,
Your analysis is very sound. The SEC is not going to set aside and watch the state of Texas get cut up without making a move!
I would think that all the SEC needs is one school from Texas and we know that U of T wants nothing to do with the SEC so the obvious choice is Ta&m for the SEC. Plus we know that A&M has always been interested in joining the SEC!
I’m not convinced that the SEC wants more than A&M, the SEC can always go east to pick up another school to get to 14. Maybe Miami or GT. Does that make sense to you?
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I think if A&M and OU were both to go to the SEC, Texas would be allowed to ditch Tech and Baylor to head to the Big 10.
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Hawkeye,
I think we see this VERY well from a chess match strategy..
a) Big 10 gets Nebraska
b) SEC gets A&M
c) Pac 10 gets 6 teams probably Texas and other teams
e) Big 10 can now raid BE and ACC
f) SEC can now raid ACC
h) Check & Mate
Delaney and Silve win and for all the fuss the Big 10 and SEC still make the big deals, everybody else is just along for the ride
FWIW with the death of the Big 12 football top to bottom really is the Big 10 and SEC (yes USC and the ACC can have a shot now and again) and will continue.
I have said all along that Delany and Slive are the only ones really playing no matter what the bloggers or media think.
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hawkeye,
ps.. fwiw.. look what the Big 10 did by taking Nebraska!
It eliminated one of the historic football rivals that was not already in the Big 10 or SEC. Go back and look at the Nebraska vs Oklahoma history as it relates to NC’s. I think folks miss what delaney has really done here.
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duffman,
Hey now, don’t go blaming the B10 for ending OU v. NU. That was done by the B12 and Oklahoma. If the rivalry still existed, NU probably wouldn’t have left. It became just another occasional inter-division game, not a rivalry.
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Losing that rivalry was a stupid move made because the division concept forced you to make it. I seriously doubt you will ever see the B10 stop the Mich-OSU rivalry. Probably the most valuable asset of the B8 was that game. And they got rid of it.
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Actually, I think the SEC is in more of a straight jacket than it wants to admit.
Texas, the state, wants all (or most) of the Texas schools to go together because it knows those schools will vote (in whatever conference) more as a block than not and thus will be better able to pull national media to the state (think Big12 Champ Game example). Having single schools go to differing confernces means that each Texas school is just “one of another group” and the state becomes another pawn in the conference’s game of growing itself.
What’s more, Texas (the state) does not want to be Alabama, Louisiana, or even Florida. It wants to be California. Top notch public universities across the state. Large and diverse industries to include agriculture. A state that is considered a “mini-america”.
The academic “step up” between the Pac and the SEC is highly visible and something IMO, the politics of the state will take into account very heavily. I mean if you want to be like California, it helps to be associated with them. Going to the SEC shows the only thing that matters in Texas is football.
Coming back to the point though, if the SEC can’t get any/all of the Texas schools (and OK/OK St will probably go along with them) where else does the SEC expand? It could take a few schools from the BigEast (WVU, Louisville) and it could try the ACC (though I still maintain there is solidarity there that would push back against SEC offers), but in the end its not going to move much further north than it already is.
I’ve felt it for a while now, if the SEC wanted to expand to 16 it might actually be very limited in what it could do…though in fairness it doesn’t really need to expand at all.
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PSU Guy,
California is in economic trouble, why else would they take the Texas 6?
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Baylor and Tech are the key.
If you have solution that puts all 4 in a power conference (not necessarily together) it has the easiest time of getting through even a functioning B12 minus Neb, CO, aTm, UT works. If there is any option on the table for all 4 to go to a power conference and it is NOT taken, there will be h*ll to pay. If the SEC wants aTm they will have to take Baylor NOT OU or OSU. Pac 10 won’t take Baylor which means either find a place for Baylor someway into the Pac 10 or B10 or if you want aTm in the SEC start booking those reservations for Waco.
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Ironically, we could see the Big 12 teams start to push for the Texas 4 to the SEC.
Then you get the Big 8 – Nebraska… Although I’m sure Oklahoma will be pissed…
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From what I’m reading the OU fans are pissed about going to the Pac16. Really the most positive seem to be lukewarm.
I think the OU fans would actually like the idea of rebuilding the Big 8/12 even if its’ a lesser conference.
Personally my pick as an OU alum is in order:
1) SEC
2) Pac-10 depending on who’s in
3) Rebuild the Big 8/12 even with out Texas
Actually the OU fans are tired of UT’s running and controlling ALL of this…the conference formation, the break up, the group to the Pac-10, now..not going to the Pac-10. It’s all about Texas
HEY? Any one actually want to ask us what WE want? OU is not Texas’s bitch. (or at least we don’t want to acknowledge it)
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OU is not Texas’s bitch. (or at least we don’t want to acknowledge it)
Shut up! Not your turn to speak yet! 🙂
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Yeah, but without Nebraska as well?
Oklahoma might as well go independent…
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Looks like OU and SEC would make a perfect fit. Does SEC really want OU? Or for the SEC is OU acceptable so long as you get A&M? Anyone have any insight or thoughts. I guess OU has their own Tech problem. But assuming that is not an issue, does SEC want OU?
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@Hopkins Horn
OHNOUDINNIT!!!
We don’t needs no man! We Don’t needs you to pay our rent! We have our own jobs.
*Rotates head at neck, one hand on hip, other hand pointing wagging finger*
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@ SH OU has a “tech problem”. OU and OSU is going to be a package deal.
They can be separated…but it would be a bloody fight that no one wants to wage, including OU.
OR…we’ll be joining Kansas and K-state in the new Big 8..yeah you all are jealous haters
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OU had better start talking to Mike Slive quick. Now that the Pac-10 has bagged CU (target #2), it will be willing to invest three invitations to bag Texas (target #1) — UT, aTm & Tech. I don’t think they go above 14 in this round, as those schools won’t add value for the league. Congrats to CU, by the way, for calling the Baylor bluff.
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I think Pac10 needs to go to 16 if it goes past 12. Adding only CO + 3 Texas schools breaks the Pac10’s symmetry. Having enough schools to fill out an eastern division is a positive for the Pac.
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I think the SEC might be inclined to accept the Tech “problem” but would probably tell Baylor to get bent. I don’t see the SEC taking A&M without Texas or OU if the SEC has to take Baylor to do it. Baylor is a negative value proposition – little fan interest, no new market.
Tech, on the other hand, brings some value, particularly if the SEC is taking A&M without UT.
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Hey Zeek;
assuming tex and A&M come to an agreement(pac 10) and big 10 goes to 16.
I think Delany has to make sure ND doesn’t have a Big East to land in for other sports. seismic shift.
If he took Syracuse, Pitt, Maryland, and ND. I believe this makes the BE crumble faster than Rutgers because of the Basketball effect as well. (could be a stretch)
I think Rutgers is easier to replace, I guess is what I’m saying. Than Pitt or Syracuse because of the total package.
I feel Mizzou and Rutgers are similar in this respect. Both conferences really don’t care if they go.
again I have this weird bias against Mizzou and Rutgers for some reason. I just think they benefit more from expansion than does the Big 10. With that said I feel Syracuse and Pitt bring real value in terms of overall product.
Set me straight.
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Not going to happen. I think Syracuse may actually be a tough one to land academically along with Notre Dame.
Notre Dame is one thing because of its unique undergraduate focus, but Syracuse spends 1/2 the research money as Notre Dame even with AAU status (which means that their AAU status is a relic of the past). I could see big pushback on adding two schools without institutional fit.
I think Rutgers/Pitt./Maryland is what you would see added with ND.
As noted above, there might be a fracturing over adding schools that don’t fit academically since Nebraska is not exactly anywhere near the median of the Big Ten by any academic measure. That may dampen the enthusiasm significantly for Mizzou and Syracuse.
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And as pointed out by others, is ND really that much of a threat to join the Big East for football?
I mean the prestige of the Pac-16/Big Ten/SEC championships after this will far outweigh the ACC or Big East championships…
It’s really hard for me to see ND joining a conference other than the Big Ten after this. I could have seen them joining the Pac-10 before this Pac-16 gambit…
More likely ND will make a decision to forever remain independent (until the Big Ten tries to move to 20…).
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ND will not join Big East FB, but their independence depends on a place for their other sport teams to land.
I can’t help thinking that The Big 10 would vote for Syracuse if ND was attached like Dodd wrote about.
The situation is so fluid though who knows what will be demanded next.
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William, you have a strong argument with the Pitt, Syracuse, Maryland deal. I like Maryland but another BE team would not be the death ell but the autopsy of BE football.
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Could be the beginning of the end I guess, especially if conferences are sprinting to 16.
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It is all a hoax..
It really is a concerted effort to keep football the american sport. as here is the World Cup and all the news is about football
😉
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an ode to the Big 12
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Mandel predicts Nebraska joins Big Ten back in 2007:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/stewart_mandel/08/01/cfb.bag/index.html
Also in same article: Steve Spurrier says he has South Carolina ready to compete for SEC title, Mark Richt may be in hot seat
The more things change…
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That was actually pretty interesting. Some observations:
1. The BTN was a huge risk that has reaped huge rewards in a fairly short amount of time.
2. Quality of fans matters as much as quantity of fans. A lot of Missourians may want Mizzou to do well, but unless they are, they aren’t watching. Neb fans will always watch and a Neb – Mich game will always be interesting.
3. I hope B10 remains anti title game.
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I told you when it went past 12 BAMA would go to DEFCON 1!
Gene Stallings seems to be the force to send A&M to the SEC
GS was a player for the “bear” when he was at A&M
GS was an assistant on 2 BAMA NC’s
GS is on the A&M BoR
I told you alabama was gonna get in this somehow….
😉
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Coach Stallings was also the head coach of our 1992 national championship team. He is definitely the SEC’s ace in the hole.
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bama,
between you and alan as the SEC folks how do you see all this playing out from a SEC view?
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That’s just it, no one outside Mike Slive knows. I think that the SEC would prefer to stay pat. But it appears our hand is getting forced now. I would think that the SEC wants to get into the Texas markets. I think their dream scenerio (outside of getting UT because I very seriously doubt that happens) would be aTm, OU, VT, and NC. But I doubt NC would jump for the same reason Ut wouldn’t. It all depends on what aTm does. If they follow UT and OU to the Pac 10, then we go east and grap VT, FSU, Clemson, and try for UNC and if we can’t get them then go to WV or GT or possibly Mizzou.
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Finally we are seeing some dominos fall. Now we are just waiting on the big ones. So if UT goes to P10 and ND remains independent, then what? I am on record believing that an east coast move is a bad idea. It may lock up the NYC market, but doesn’t really help anywhere else. I think this allows the B10 to sit tight until more favorable schools are available. I think a B10 move to FSU and GT to get to 14 has a lot of merit. Look the south will always be SEC country, but they are football fans as well. Those two schools make the B10 a much more interesting conference than adding Syr and Rutgers or some other combo of east coast schools. And you can never underestimate demographics.
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An above post from an SEC troll and the success of the Blackhawks last night made me realize that I’m interested in something different than he is. Maybe it’s the NU pedigree (that’s Northwestern now and forever regardless of Big Red) in me, but I’ve always viewed college athletics as a means to an end for a University, that end being a solid education, followed by financial and professional success of its students.
The Big Ten is making moves to improve its member Universities (via large sums of money and affiliation with like minds), not to primarily improve performance on the football field. Yes, athletic success is a consideration (maybe even 1a) and will be a secondary benefit, but I’ve always taken pride in our schools doing well with honor (which is why I was so pissed when Michigan’s streak of never being under sanctions was recently put at risk – and why I’ve been so proud of the singular AAU distinction of the Big Ten while having a couple of the most successful brands in both college athletics and academics). The Big Ten has proven that these things aren’t mutually exclusive.
Guys, the players are still called student/athletes; and I even played college baseball for awhile before stopping to focus on studies. The memories and pride I have of my college years don’t primarily revolve around sports, although I take great pride in the Wildcat’s emergence as a second Tier Big Ten football team and the success of other sports. This is different that the way I feel when the Bulls, Sox or Blackhawks of a big city’s pro sports franchises win. The pro teams are part of the fabric and identity of the city, and the reason you identify with them is exclusively because of athletic feats (I’ll grant that the same fabric integration and fanaticism can exist in small college towns without pro sports.).
I couldn’t be happier than to have been educated at Big Ten Universities, even more so now that this expansion is reaffirming the values I thought were in place when I went there (obviously I didn’t go to NU for the sports!).
Finish the job. Pick 4 from Texas/A&M/Rutgers/ND/Virginia/Maryland/NC (Pitt/Mizzou won’t make me hate you). Excellence requires no apology.
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My finish-the-job list: Pick 4 from among Texas, aTm, Rutgers, Pitt, UVa, NC, Duke, Vandy.
ND and the Big 10 should strike a good-neighbor policy, supporting ND’s position in the BCS structure and guaranteeing 4 home-and-home series w/Big 10 teams, with 2 of those games taking place in Oct. or Nov.
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I’d rather buy their TV rights in football. I’m not sold on allowing them to maintain special status in the BCS as an independent once 4 super conferences exist, which they know and is the stick to the carrot currently being offered. Why allow them an easier path?
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ND + Big 10 would be a difficult marriage (e.g., if the Irish insist on a 7-game conference slate, as per the first Purple Book Cat rumor, it would water down the conference championship race and reduce cohesion), but we can and should be good neighbors. A TV rights deal between the BTN and the Irish, and a locked-in number of home-and-home series, could provide benefit for both entities, and to preserve the value of the relationship the Big 10 can support ND’s position in the BCS (AQ if in the top 8 of BCS standings, entry to the NCG if top 2).
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If ND values it’s independence as fiercely as they lead everyone to believe, what makes anyone think they’d be comfortable having their games televised on the BTN?
I don’t see this ever transpiring. They would be ridiculed for it. And rightly so. From the B10’s perspective, financially speaking, it might be a windfall. i just can’t see the Irish agreeing to that. Even if that is their best alternative economically.
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I’ve been advocating that for a week or so. I think a rights deal could have great mutual benefits. I’m sure its been explored in some fashion. I guess we’ll have to wait and see if it works. It would kind of remind me when Fox outbid CBS for the NFC games. That was shocking back then, and really announced Fox as a power. I think a lot of people would be shocked if BTN purchased rights for a non-BT team (especially one who has spurned the invitation).
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I agree with your sentiment on some level, but a hell of a lot less than I used to. Why the Irish entitlement? Based on what from this generation? Even historically, is their tradition any greater than Michigan’s? Academics any between than Northwestern’s? Of course not; forget the sentiment and look at the objective data. I believe we are graciously extending the hand of friendship and brotherhood to them, and what we have historically gotten in return is public rejection and now ongoing requests for entitlement? Based on what?
It would be a difficult marriage if we acquiesce to their demands. It might be a difficult marriage if they give up their independence, but I believe they realize it’s time to join the ‘fraternity of nations’. I believe they are closer to us than their fandom think or want to believe, and they will join us, the ACC or the Big East (joke).
College football is indeed better when ND is good. College athletics is better when the standards of the Big Ten are bought into.
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@SH: I fully expect the Big Ten to be a financial player in whatever programming makes sense, starting with the packaging their product with the Pac-10’s to create national distribution instead of just within their individual footprint. A lot of this is about ND having to eat crow. Obviously they don’t want to do this, but “will if we have to”.
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If ND doesn’t want to join the B10, then that’s their right. But, the B10 doesn’t have to treat them with kid gloves.
I’d rather the B10 vow to NOT support ND’s BCS special status. Especially since ND getting a BCS bid could in some year push a B10 team out of a bid.
What is ND gonna do- cancel their games with UM, MSU, and Purdue? Big deal- those schools would have no trouble replacing ND with another quality opponent to fill the stadium. ND on the other hand, would have trouble scheduling good teams in the new super-conference environment. I’m a Spartan, and even though ND is a traditional rival and I enjoy the game every year, I say to hell with them. Get in or get out.
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Agreed.
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Oops, forgot Md. They should be on the finish-the-job list with the others. All AAU, all high research investment & ARWU rankings.
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Couldn’t agree with you more Jeff. I have been attending Wildcat games since the late seventies. I was always quite proud of looking in the program at the NU players and seeing strong majors. I knew they were not compromising academics one bit. This is both through the bad teams and the good ones. Sometimes I go to the early season games and the stadium is not packed. It’s a byproduct of the students not all being in town because of the way their semesters are setup and Nearby Chicago is a big pro town. But the quality of what I see is more often than not really good college football. Either way it changes nothing to the academic focused university on the lake.
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Missouri has no offer as of yet:
http://www.kansascity.com/2010/06/10/2006487/curator-confirms-mu-has-no-big.html
It goes along with what the Northwestern board poster said.
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Per Dave Matter’s twitter (@Dave_Matter): “#Mizzou is circulating an email to campus officials reminding them to tell media: “We are proud members of Big 12.”
He also mentions when the MU Chancellor learned Colorado was gone, he immediately called Texas Prez. Bill Powers.
Chancellor also said “Anything could happen” in regards to MU & the Big 12’s future.
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College basketball is just getting bad news from all over this week. Kansas is just an after thought. Izzo may leave.
The whole Kansas thing just confirms, for me, why college football should be anti-playoff. College basketball is interesting for 3 weeks a year. College football is interesting 12 years after the fact (who should have won the national title – Mich or Neb).
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16 yrs after the fact for me. Why oh why doesn’t PSU at least get a split national title after its undefeated Rose Bowl run. I still want a crack at the 94 Huskers.
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That first game in Happy Valley will be interesting, won’t it? Start making T-shirts now.
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I agree 100%- that PSU offense was possibly the best I’ve ever seen.
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If I was Kansas, I would consider joining the MWC in all sports (includinf football) and go independant in basketball. Playing the MWC schools in basketball may hurt the basketball product as a whole.
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Meant “including”, not “includinf”.
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Can they get into the tourney then? I don’t think they can.
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Yes. As an at large.
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Interesting idea. Only two schools could do it Duke and Kansas. I would say pretty good chance but if the BE came calling they would jump there.
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I still remember where I was when Mario Chalmers hit his shot, when Acie Law granny shot it over Kevin Durant in triple over time for a win and the joy I took in watching OSU take away Illinois’ winning streak in 2005 (Sorry, Frank). If you follow basketball, these moments stay with you for years.
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Agree completely SH. I think the bowl are one of the things which separate college football and make it so interesting. As much as people complain about the BCS it has been a success in almost every way. Interest in regular season games across the country has skyrocketed, lower divisions who never would have had a chance before have become recognized names (Boise State!?) The college presidents would be idiotic to give that up.
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Just to add to my point. This whole expansion process is interesting because of football. College football is by far the most important and interesting topic in sports right now and that is considering the following:
1. A resurging NHL with an Original 6 member winning the Cup just ended.
2. The two marquee franchises in the NBA are playing in the finals, with arguably a top 5 player of all time.
3. Speculation as to where Lebron will end up is growing.
4. A baseball sensation was born the other night – Straburger.
5. The world’s biggest sporting event is about to the start – the World Cup.
It’s kind of amazing that College Football can steal the spotlight from all those at this time. With a playoff – expansion would be a lot less intersting. And when and if Texas makes a formal move, it will be even bigger.
Just some observations.
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Can I get my Straburger with cheese?
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Holy crap. Frank is now showing 929,569 hits.
If the Texas powwow runs late maybe we can watch the odometer roll over to all zeroes for amusement.
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Just would like to it has been a pleasure speaking to all of you. We have more informed analysis and information coming from this board then anything coming out of ESPN or any other sports outlet.
Next Prediction:
BE tells ND to either join us or get out. ND leaves and BE makes an offer to KU and KSU who immediately accept thanking heaven they are not headed for MWC. This shores up the BE and Delany is now boxed into ND or UT or bust.
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Question for ALL.
Especially those who regularly tune in to the Big Ten Network on Saturday morning/ Afternoon.
Which Big ten football team more mirrors ND over the past 12 years? I just ask because of all the efforts to woo ND lately. Aside for the history, would the BT spend as much time over a team with a similar record?
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Over the last 12 years? Well, ND has been feast (1999, 2005-06) or famine (2003-04, 2007-) and been average in the other years. The best comparison I can think of is the poor man’s Penn State, and the Big Ten would absolutely snap up Penn State all over again; remember, location is the only thing holding Pitt back.
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If the Pac-10 wins the UT sweepstakes, and aTm goes to SEC, what about Kansas to the Pac-10?
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Flo,
with UCLA in 1 division and KU in the other – pretty tasty from the basketball side.
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NW board leakmaster seems to be hinting that it is TTech, not MO, that has a bloc of schools for and a bloc of schools against:
http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?SID=901&fid=57&style=2&tid=143839427&Page=3
OSU President Email.
Posted on 6/10 11:51 AM
And love this nugget:
The events of today have been planned by the Big Ten literally years in advance. Fascinating and exciting.
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Good god. That means m (Ag) was right and we may be seeing the rebirth of the Texas/A&M/Tech to the Big Ten scenario.
But I don’t see how that one passes. There should be enough schools to vote it down…
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I just don’t see how TT gets in. But I do wonder if maybe Baylor could be the surprise compromise that pleases both ND and UT? Gives UT another close rival and also provides a religious private school (with decent academics) to align with ND. Probably crazy but I think that is better fit than TT if we’re heading down this path.
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@BoilerTex – I’m making some “educated” speculation here: don’t assume that the “academically unqualified” school would be Texas Tech.
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crazy thought…could it be OU? Nebraska would love that as much as we’d love to be back with Nebraska.
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just hear from a friend in Boulder who is well placed with CU. He spoke with someone involved with the Pac 10 negotiations that
FWIW: “Texas and TAMU are talking to the Big 10 right now. There’s no way they don’t go to either the PAC-10 or the Big 10, but which one is still completely up in the air as of today.”
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That matches what Playoffs Now! just put up above you.
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thats what I get for asking if he minded my posting it 🙂
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Well it’s interesting news to say the least.
And it fits with only Colorado joining the Pac-10 so they have flexibility for all 5 or just Utah…
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Frankly, I do give a damn. Was really hoping aTm would go SEC because the Gone With the Wind snarks are endless.
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The first domino in the real game: avoid the blame has begun. UCB jumped on the sword for the rest as they are not considered the biggest domino anyways.
Next UNL goes to the BIg 10
Then Texas proclaims that they can’t hold the big 12 together, and they have to look out for their Texas universities. THey then will claim that the Pac’s move means they have to choose to protect texas tech or no one and they have to at least protect tech.
Then the big12 falls apart, and maybe Mizzou gets a bid.
Each of them will point elsewhere for the blame.
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The advantage in wooing Texas is with the Pac-10, because they can invest three invitations (UT, Tech & aTm) to secure the Longhorns, while the Big 10 has been pretty clear that it will invest only two (UT + aTm, which offer pretty damn good value on its own). Pleasing Tech’s supporters in the TX Leg (& TTU’s well-connected chancellor, Kent Hance) will be the path of least resistance for UT.
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OSU to Pac 10?
TMZ sports is reporting it as a done deal.
http://www.tmz.com/2010/06/10/oklahoma-state-pacific-10-ncaa-conferences-football-big-12/
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hard to believe their invite is not conditional
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That’s bizarre. But it doesn’t really mean anything.
Until Texas/A&M say they’re 100% committed to the Pac-10, no one else is getting let in…
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the Pac 10 needs a 2nd to Colorado.
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I don’t know. It makes sense to me. Colorado and Oklahoma State have been the two schools consistently thrown around as the ones that could be dropped and replaced with Baylor. Moving in this order, Scott is essentially showing he is in control and that there will not be a spot for Baylor.
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Yeah, but….Wait a minute….
OSU to the Pac 10???? Really???? Stanford and California must have lost their minds…I mean, really? I never bought that piece of it and still don’t. TMZ might have got the Tiger Woods thing but this just doesn’t make sense…
Brain Overload…Too much expansion information!
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Agreed. Pac 10 is not giving UT any wiggle room whatsoever and by inviting OSU – means OU has to come along.
UT is losing leverage by the second now.
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It makes sense I suppose from that angle.
I still think the Pac-10 would want to do them all at the same time as a way of preventing Texas/A&M or anyone from backing out…
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@Hangtime – if OSU has a place to land, OU could be freed up to go elsewhere.
If Texas isn’t 100%, no-option-to-change-its-mind committed to the Pac, OU will be in talks with the SEC.
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Newsflash:
In a sudden development today, Oklahoma State University, with financing provided by booster T. Boone Pickens, has purchased Johns Hopkins University with the intent to move the main campus to Stillwater, Oklahoma where it will be merged with the main OSU campus.
“This all came about very suddenly,” Pickens said, “with conference realignment exploding the Big 12, I thought our new facilities would get us into any conference we wanted. Turns out, some of these conferences care about things like academics and research. Who knew? Well, I knew there wasn’t time to develop that sort of thing, so like any businessman, I figured the quickest way to make ourselves worthy was to pull off a merger. Johns Hopkins was sitting there with only a $2.5 billion dollar endowment, so I knew it was gettable. It took a lot of windmills, but we got to an agreement.”
Condaleeza Rice, speaking for Stanford, said “we hope the new merged university in Stillwater will quickly accept our offer to join the Pac 11. It now features positive academics and a kick-ass lacrosse team.”
The newly merged school will be titled Oklahoma State Hopkins Institute of Technology. Ronald J. Daniels, former President of Johns Hopkins and currently without title, said of the name “it was the first thing I thought of when I heard the announcement. I guess windmills are the future.”
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You were 2 seconds faster than me.
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I wish there was an edit button. Meant 2 minutes faster than me.
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They’re pretty douchey, but one thing I’ve learned over the last couple of years is that TMZ is pretty damn accurate with breaking news.
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Couldn’t have said it better myself.
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That solves Oklahoma’s “Little Brother Problem”.
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Would further cement my feeling that the whole point of these step by step dance is so texas can deny they broke apart the conference and that their is a spot in a big 3 conference for Baylor
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From the Oklahoman: OSU booster Boone Pickens: “We’re in” — if Big 12 exodus to Pac-10 happens. “It cost us, but we’re in.”
Pickens credits the upgrade in facilities for putting OSU in the position it’s in.
via twitter @Jake_Trotter
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gopher,
and oregon state and oklahoma state are 2 of the Sun Grant schools in the country. now the Pac 10 / 16 can claim 2/5 of the consortium.
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OSU AD is speaking out against the validity of the story per Radio 610 in Kansas City.
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Well, it looks like TMZ has gotten into the expansion rumor mix. They are reporting that OK ST will be the next Big 12 school to jump to the Pac 10. I know that they are a tabloid outlet and it is kind of humorous, but they are usually pretty accurate from everything I’ve ever seen that they’ve broke (at least as far as a tabloid outlet is concerned).
Here is the link:
http://www.tmz.com/2010/06/10/oklahoma-state-pacific-10-ncaa-conferences-football-big-12/
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Expansion talk has really gone prime time now. I can’t wait for the TV movie in 5 years. Who will play Frank?
That rumor seems a little silly to me. But at this point, I’m willing to believe anything.
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TMZ is more accurate than not, but Okie St to the Pac-10 doesn’t make sense unless T. Boone is dropping sacks of cash on Walnut Creek, Calif.
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California is into alternative energy. Boone owns all the wind farms so they must keep OSU happy. Just as I thought the B10 was cornering the food supply, the P10 is now cornering the alternative energy supply.
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I’ll take the food supply any day. We’ll just use coal here 🙂
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If adding Texas Tech gets you Tex, TAM, and maybe even ND, then the B10 should do it in a heartbeat. With all teh extra cash, you can send truckloads of GMAT prep materials to Lubbock.
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I think that would be tough to turn down. So how do you get there without inviting Tech. Hopkins and Zeek like to play game theory. Do you invite Mizzou now and hope ND joins along leaving only 2 spots? Are we even certain ND wants in? Maybe you tell Texas/A&M, we are going to 14 and that is it. If B10 can somehow get UT/A&M/ND and some other prized recruit, then Obama ought to put Delaney in charge of something really important.
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jcfreder:
The Big Ten is only interest in one school in Texas, the University of Texas. Even if the Big Ten extends an offer to Ta&m per the Northwestern board.
Here’s why: The Big Ten knows that A&M will not join the Big Ten, this is just pushing A&M over to the SEC. UT will be standing on its own pretty quickly. UT can either join the Pac 10 with Colorado and a group of lesser schools (not a great option), go independent (high risk) or join the Big Ten ALONE. This may not be UT’s first or best option, but soon it’s going to be all that UT has left.
Delaney is nothing short of a genius. He’s going to land the University of Texas for the Big Ten without the other “Tech problems.”
JD for President and “pass the BBQ sauce, please.”
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You don’t sound like a Big10 guy. We’d be fine with either Texas or TAMU (academically, they’re both solid). Only Tech is a problem.
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Heard this rumor from an Okie State guy, so take it FWIW. But I think it would be awesome if true.
According to him, the Pac 10 and Big 10 are working together on a four-pod system where the top two teams of each pod would advance into an eight-team “playoff” in each conference and the winners of each playoff would meet in the Rose Bowl.
I didn’t get much more than that. But I’m assuming what he means is that each team would basically play the same three teams in conference every year (in their pod) and then the rest of their “conference” games would go be in this playoff format.
For example, say you have Pac 16 pods of (with top two finishers in parenthesis):
Texas, A&M, Tech, CU (Tex, A&M)
OU, OSU, Arizona, ASU (OU, OSU)
USC, UCLA, Cal, Stanford (USC, UCLA)
Oregon, Oregon State, Washington, WSU (Ore., Ore. St.)
So that would lead to something like this in the first round:
Tex vs. OSU
A&M vs. OU
USC vs. Ore. St.
UCLA vs. Oregon
Next round:
Tex vs. OU
USC vs. Oregon
Final round:
Tex vs. USC with winner going to Rose Bowl
Interesting thought if true.
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Basically, the Pac-10 and Big Ten are going to remain separate but in effect act like two conferences of a league…
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Now that is innovating. Don’t like it but wow. Somehow I think the SEC will stick its nose in this – such a scheme just invites a meeting with Congress.
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Really complicated plans often implode on themselves. Especially when you need cooperation from unrelated or competing entities.Not buying it.
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not buying it, especially if it involves USC…at least until 2013.
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Well I agree with that.
I mean in the first place, the Big Ten’s more important bowl affiliations other than the Rose Bowl are in Florida and with the SEC.
I don’t see us giving that up for a playoff with the Pac-16.
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I don’t think it’s a “playoff” with the Pac 16 and Big 10 and everything else ends there. It’s more like a way to decide the conference champion with a mini playoff within the conferences.
That doesn’t mean that Pac 10 and Big 10 won’t send other teams to bowls.
I’d view this as an alternative to the different pod scenarios we’ve seen where teams are just playing random teams outside their pod each year.
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Considering the relationship the PAC -10 and the BIG TEN have, I can believe this.
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RT @thatsean: Oklahoma AD Joe Castiglione confirmed to the Tulsa World that the SEC has shown interests, but that OU will follow Texas. less than a minute ago via TweetDeck
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this was orginally from Wes Rucker the U of Tenn beat writer. He also added this gem:
Not sure why the proud Oklahoma program would essentially admit it’s just Texas’s little brother. I love OU’s AD, but that’s disappointing.
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Didn’t see this when I posted below. Hee hee.
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This is the full quote from the Tulsa World:
While Castiglione also confirmed that the Southeastern Conference has shown interest in the Sooners, OU’s position is that it’s going to stick with Texas wherever the Longhorns go because of the long history between the two schools.
“I think it would be a horrendous decision for OU and Texas to break up,” Castiglione said. “We’re going to stick together if it’s at all possible.”
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/OU/article.aspx?subjectid=92&articleid=20100610_202_B1_OKLAHO7815
Joe C. and Pres. David Boren are both savvy – they’re keeping options available if UT bolts for the Big10 or the Pac solution otherwise looks not-so-hot.
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OU following texas.. shocking
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So Frank is saying OK is the BT’s “Tech” problem, if I’m following him correctly…….
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Long term relations question?
If the Pac 16 wants UT / A&M, and they go to the Big 10
Big 10 now at 14 + teams
Pac 10 now at 11 (and colorado is shaky)
Long term has the Big 10 just cut off its nose in the long term historic relationship with the Pac 10?
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duffman,
That’s a fair question. And we all know that the Big Ten want’s to appear to be “playing fair” here.
But if this is about Big Dollars, as we all think it is, don’t you feel that the Big Ten will grab the cash and let the Pac 10, “get over it.” If we do all we can to beat the Pac on the field it only makes sense to beat them at business as well. And this is all about big time business.
Delaney is concerned about appearances and other conferences feelings, but this is history and his legacy at risk. If he can get Texas he will. Again, I don’t think that the Big Ten wants anything to do with A&M. Only UT is a target for the Big Ten.
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Hawkeye,
in an earlier post I asked what if ..
the big 10 added Neb, ND, TX, A&M, and MD
you have pissed off the BE, ACC and will known for history as the league that killed the Big 12
while you win the battle to 16, you have lost the war because at that point everybody will gang up on you, and next stop is congress and the court system.
JUST HIT ESPN!! MISSOURI HAS NO INVITE FROM THE BIG 10!! missouri is the puppet, and have been hosed!
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Duffman,
You raise valid and strong points. Even Jim Delaney’s email mentioned something about “contract issues” (read litigation) and not undermining the “brand name.” So I’m sure that one of his big concerns is not destroying other conferences and crating enemies.
But at the same time is appears right now that Mizzou was played out big time. Mizzou is going to try to Stomp the *&^! out of Illinois when they play. If Mizzou is destined for Conference USA they will never be seen as an A Class athletic program again….
But, boy, you listed a killer conference: Neb, ND, TX, A&M, and MD. Those schools would be my pick for the best killer conference. So I take it that you don’t think that UT and MD will be options for the Big Ten?
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Yeah, you don’t want Congress sticking their heads into and having a Senator from Miss just ask, why don’t you let the NCAA run a conference playoff? Something the public already wants.
Unless the B10 secretly does want that because it will only help their network.
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Hawkeye,
when you get congress involved, you may wind up with tOSU, Dayton, Cincinnati, Purdue, Indiana, UL, UK, and WKU in the Congress approved Big 10 East! and Ill, Wisc, Iowa, Iowa ST, Kansas, Kansas ST, Minn, and Nebraska in the Big 10 West!
if delaney is not careful we can be in a real crapfest quickly! Orrin Hatch + Kansas + Missouri + Oklahoma (if Tx and A&M are B 10) + etc.. it can get ugly real fast.
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BREAKING NEWS MORE FROM NW SITE!!
(SIAP, skimmed through and didnt see this. sorry if its already been posted)
Here is a copy of posts from NW board:
“I hear ya. It may not come to that though.
Sounds like UT and TAMU are dropping their ugly kid sisters.
UT and TAMU to the B10 are looking more and more likely.
http://collegesportsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/06/baylor-tech-now-part-of-meeting-with-ut.html”
Insider:
“That’s what I heard too E-Cat. Interesting to actually see it reported though…
Now the Big Twelve is in sufficient disarray to nullify any unified political opposition to the Texas schools going their own ways (at least Texas and A&M together).”
“I have a hunch Reply
This was Jim Delany’s, Gordon Gee and Bill Powers plan the entire time. This is the way it HAD to go down for us to reel in the big fish. UT could not be seen as driving this. They had to be seen as reluctant. And doing everything they could to save the B12.
I only wonder if Larry Scott was in league with them on this. Seems like they got CU afterall (which was the original best projection). And I’ll guess that the Pac12 or 16 network that Fox will be co-operating will be bundled somehow with the BTN across a MASSIVE footprint (of course we will command a greater share of the royalties) and that it won’t be a coincidence or unrelated to what’s gone down here. Either way, there was no way I was ever going to believe a rookie commissioner was outmaneuvering Jim Delany on any this.”
THOUGHTS ZEEK AND OTHERS?
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The problem is Texas and A&M are saying they’re going to get on the same page, and OU/OSU are all acting like they’ve got their bags packed to the Pac-16.
Would Texas/A&M really ditch them all at the very last moment for the Big Ten? It doesn’t seem like that can happen this late in the game.
The Big Ten would have to somehow rush an offer including Tech, but Tech doesn’t have the votes…
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FWIW,
A&M is playing right now in the NCAA regional
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I dont think its as close to being done (pac16) as people seem to think it is.
If only those two are having a meeting, then they seem to be on the page of they are going to do what is best for them together or individually.
Could the pac16 still work out? sure.
I dont think its as close to a done deal as people thought it was yesterday.
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Add to that the idea that the Big 10 may be a “compromise” solution for Texas and A&M, per Frank’s recent twitter. The idea of bringing in two schools who may each prefer to be somewhere else, and are ditching rivals at the last minute, makes me a little nervous.
I’m not saying that I think this is what’s happening, just that if it is, I worry for the long-term stability of the conference.
That being said, if Texas, A&M, and Nebraska come in, it’s going to be even harder for ND to turn down an offer.
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Or easier – they still have a happily in tact BE for their non football sports to play in
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I know that it’s a crappy source, but this will be an interesting test between the bloggers versus the ESPN douchebags as to who has the scoop.
All things said, there’s been a lot more intelligent disussion here than on TV. ESPN is making it sound like it’s a done deal between TX/OK schools and PAC10.
Do they know something that you guys don’t, or are they stupid?
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by “crappy source,” I mean cable tv.
need edit or preview here.
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They’re stupid…I am just not buying that Texas let’s go of the Big 12 that easy and that the Pac 10 agrees to take Texas and A&M that quickly…not to mention Okie State…
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Regarding ESPN:
I’m pulling for UT to B10 so that a SMU douchebag has to shave his head. He should keep his horses, because they’re smarter.
For me:
A&M to P10. Only condition: Stanford’s band plays at Kyle field annually regardless of whether or not the teams play.
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I think that there are good sources on TV, but be weary of ‘shock jocks’ that are looking for quick ratings at the expense of accuracy. I’d trust journalists from the print medium at this point in time.
Katz, Feldman, Staples and Greenstein have been quiet over the last hour or two. That should tell you something.
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I could not agree anymore. Plus, if the BTN can break their monopoly on college football – even better.
I’m pulling for you versus and MLB network.
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It feels like the Pac 10 is being played like a fiddle. The six Big XII schools do not want to join the Pac 10 (except for Colorado of course).
UT is going to the Big Ten because it will be the best of all the remaining options open to it.
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Who plays:
Delaney
Scott
Slive
Beebe
Dodds
in the TV movie. I like Robert Duvall for Delaney
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NO!
James Gandolfini (Tony Soprano) – He even looks like him….
Scott: Hmmmmm….Looks like a Tom Cruise, doncha’ think?
Beebe: We need a real boob here…It’s either Dwight (Rainn Wilson) from “The Office” or Chris Elliot….
Slive: Jason Robards would have been perfect…What about Burt Reynolds?
Dodds: Dan Lauria – the Dad from the “Wonder Years”….
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Tom Arnold as Don Beebe.
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Yup, that’s it.
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Ohhhhh…That’s frickin’ PERFECT!
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I think John Slattery would make a good Mike Slive if you aged him up a little. (Roger Sterling in Mad Men)
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Now you’re talking. Jon Hamm as Larry Scott.
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Gene Hackman (beloved in Big 10 country) as JD.
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David Strathairn as Gordon Gee.
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In his acting debut, former FEMA head Mike Brown as Don Beebe.
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Why is Chip Brown saying?:
Boom goes the dynamite.
13 minutes ago via TweetDeck
ChipBrownOB
Chip Brown
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Still waiting for the next tweet to see what he means
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Same here, but if it means what it seems to mean, I can’t help but picture Kansas shouting the last lines of “Planet of the Apes”…
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longest dynamite fuse ever
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pretty sure it is in reference to colorado officially leaving the b12. meaning simply that it is on.
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Just wanted to drop in to say that it looks like I might have been wrong when I said way back (two, three months ago?) that Texas wouldn’t have any problem extricating itself from its conference mates. I’m not totally conceding the point, but this “Tech Problem” appears to be a legitimate concern. Anyway, this blog is nuts now. Over 1,000 threads per post? How can anyone keep up?
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Here’s my take on the future and the decisions driving the future:
Regardless of what happens in the south, the Big Ten still needs to strengthen its position in the Northeast (NYC primarily). There are two ways of accomplishing this: either secure Notre Dame or start inviting some of the top available schools from the region. Problem with the latter scenario is it destabilizes the Big East and increases the risk the conference will break up or be poached also by others which in the end will probably lead to Notre Dame coming to the Big Ten anyway (if not, it will be OK). The Big East definitely knows this and doesn’t want this and this is probably not desirable for ND as it will create much uncertainty and could sway away potential students and recruits. Independent of path the Big Ten wins although the preferred option would be to capture ND and possibly stop there.
Thus, best option would be for ND to listen to the Big Ten and the Big East (“go to Big Ten so we can all survive”). If this were to occur the Big Ten has acquired the one school that gives then best bang for the buck as it pertains to a strong Northeast audience which is largely Irish and Catholic. This results in greater BTN penetration and fees in those market. As a bonus Big Ten also gets a program that has a national following (for many of the same reasons plus because of their allure/legacy) and a program that is dead smack in the middle of the Big Ten footprint reducing travel costs.
If above were to happen the Big Ten would probably halt expansion unless it stood a chance of picking up some other (non-Big East) value-add schools that are ripe for the picking and which won’t be there in the future. I believe what we are seeing in college football is unprecedented and the landscape that is created in the next year will likely be around for a long time. Thus, make the moves now or others will make them and those options won’t be around in the future. I believe the Big Ten would love to get its hands on a ACC school or more (MD?), however, that is the back-up plan to the primary plan.
Primary goal is to pick up at least Texas and Texas A&M next (in addition to some others to be part of their Western pod…MO?). Question is why would these TX schools even be interested? Especially with Nebraska and Notre Dame on board, it makes the case for Texas and Texas A&M all the more compelling as no other conferences will come close to matching the Big Ten when it comes to the combination of academic prestige, research funding (CIC), and athletic success, tradition & the resultant funds coming from the BTN (which will grow significantly (2X?) given the death star, grand slam scenario).
The next question to be asked by the sports fan, is why bring on board so many top notch football schools? Won’t that make it too difficult to get ranked and into BCS bowls? Answer: Today, yes. Tomorrow, no. Out of conference games can still be scheduled, but the concern is over playing for the National Championship or the BSC bowls. While not formally announced, it should be evident the BCS is on its way out and the college football future is already moving toward a playoff…ala the NCAA basketball tourney. Win (or possibly place well) within your conference division or Pod and you will be in the future national playoff picture where near perfect records won’t matter anymore as the goal will be to get in. How this will look like I don’t know, but I firmly believe there are folks who do and who are already moving the pieces to get there.
I believe Texas & Texas A&M know much of what I wrote above and are seriously considering the Big Ten but concerned about the political ramifications. Besides talking Big 12 and Pac 12, would they be so foolish not to even consider the Big Ten? I don’t know if one or both will end up going to the Big Ten, but I believe they understand what the conference offers in terms of academics, research, a lot more funding & money…plus the ability to still keep many of their traditional football rivalries (out of conference) in addition to their chances alive at playing in a good bowl toward the national championship playoff.
Colleges are now led by CEOs (as I’ve heard them referred to) who are looking to protect and further their institution and their state both on the short and very long term. This is a corporate dog eat dog and hostile threat and takeover environment where the stakes are huge in academics, research, athletics and jobs (all being driven by money). Unfortunately we need to take off our “fan” hats and put on our “CEO” hats to understand what is happening and the reasons behind this. Above all, college football and the institutions as a whole won’t only survive…they will thrive on the long term. Good luck to all the Commissioners and CEOs making their decisions over the next couple hours, days, weeks and possibly months.
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From the Oklahoman: OSU booster Boone Pickens: “We’re in” — if Big 12 exodus to Pac-10 happens. “It cost us, but we’re in.”
No one can doubt that T Bone would know what is going on
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“It cost us, but we’re in.”
I sure hope someone asks followup questions.
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Boone will pay those costs by pulling out his petty cash drawer.
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“It cost us…” What does that refer to? Exit fees from B12? That would mean a nice payday for KU, KSU, ISU, etc. from all the teams bolting.
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I think he’s crediting all the facilities they built.
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OSU’s AD is saying the report is false. They’re going to have the President issue a statement later today. Per radio 610 in Kansas City.
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so in the last few hours we’ve had Oklahoma saying they would follow Texas and a couple of last Ok State sources making it clear they will go to Pac 10. could it be a lsst second reminder to Texas/TAMU that there are other old partners following their lead and depending on them?
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“Boom goes the dynamite” – Chip Brown
Something big will be announced very soon.
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Chill, everyone. It’s over. Just as it was spelled out last week:
http://insidetexas.com/news/story.php?article=2426
The meeting today between athletics department officials of Texas and Texas A&M is with the intent of preserving the two team’s natural regional rivalries and is not about breaking apart or maintaining a non-conference game between the two schools, according to a trusted source with historic ties to the Texas Men’s Athletics Department. The heart of any new conference schedule will remain the traditional rivalries between Texas, Texas A&M and Texas Tech, with Oklahoma and Oklahoma State added to that mix.
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I love the wording of this tweet:
Oklahoma AD Joe Castiglione confirmed to the Tulsa World that the SEC has shown interests, but that OU will follow Texas.
What were you saying earlier, Redhawk? 🙂
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They won’t be able to follow Texas to the Big 10. So is that confirmation of a Pac-16?
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Yep. It’s over.
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Heckuva job, Beebe.
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I don’t know what you are talking about. We love you and you know we always have! 😛
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That’s better. 🙂
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Thats comforting because altough I am still on the fence about how much I like/love the deal from a power struggle standpoint between new members and existing hierarchy (although I do love the deal from a potential $$ making giant standpoint) – the last thing I wanted was the Pac to be nationally percieved as “getting left at the alter” (regardless of how true it would’ve been.
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take it back, HH.
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and nothing has changed since last week?
if so they are so be it. there is plenty of opportunites for interesting synergy between the the Pac 10 and Big Ten.
but I hope you are wrong. I’m looking forward to Texas’ first trip to Ann Arbor so you and I can meet to discuss that crack about the 97 Huskers vs the 97 Wolverines.
over a beer of course.
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Just win the Big 10. We’ll be waiting for you in Pasadena. Any year. 🙂
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Certainly will with the USC verdict coming down. On a serious note, how do you feel about that- going into a conferernce where the best football school is being punished.
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We’re not being punished.
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Touche
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Indeed.
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When did Texas become a better football school than Oklahoma?
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If this does indeed go through (which now seems rather likely) I can’t wait to see how the PAC-16 and BIG (insert variable here) relationship further devolops.
We (being the PAC and BIG) just need to make sure we don’t beat up on the SEC to much or they’ll try to leave the union again…
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Yep, TexAgs.com honcho is on the radio and the defeat in his voice is overwhelming. Says SEC might still be an option, but you can just tell.
“The dream is crushed!”
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How about a real long shot? How serious is the P10 to get to 16? If this is a scheme with Delany to transform college football to 4×64, could we see some unexpected schools in the mix? Utah makes a good 12, KS and MO would be logical AAU adds. Could we then see 2 of ISU, BYU, OU, OK St, or UH? The academic issue is still a huge hurdle for all but ISU and maybe BYU. At first blush one would guess that the economics don’t work, however perhaps the huge payoff by incorporating a playoff might make up for that, plus the greater $ capture of shrinking to 4 conferences and 64 teams.
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Question for the Big 10ers:
If this is going down as it appears (Nebraska alone to the Big 10, the Big 12 Six to the Pac 10), is there any chance that Mizzou could get a Pity Invite from the Big 10 after all?
I’m actually somewhat serious about that.
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It could still work out that way. I’m really unsure what the Big Ten will do though. I assume wait for a final rebuff from ND.
But if they decide to go east, Missouri could be hurting. Unless Nebraska and Illinois really lobby for them. Then again, I’m not really pro-Missouri, so I’m probably not the best person to answer.
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doubtful as there are better teams out east to nab.
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For the Big Ten, Mizzou would be the last alternative left on the table.
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Disagree. I think Missouri will be in. I think this takes us back to the Mo, Neb, RU in, then wait, scenerio.
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I’d say, keep it at 12. 2 reasons: let the dust settle, and better chances per team.
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I think MU is still on the table, regardless of what happens with TX or ND. They actually do bring their own merits to the table. I wouldn’t see them as a stand-alone at #13, but could see them being a part of an addition with RU, ND, or others.
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Without ND, why not just stay at 12. A good workable number. I know others disagree, but inviting Mizzou and Rutgers only waters down the conference as a whole. Do the increased state TV sets, offset the fact that it loses its appeal as a whole? I really think Kansas offers more than Mizzou? Again it is all about branding.
Plus, I’m not sure of the long-term stability of the P16. Question back to you HH – where do you see the P16 in 10-15 years? Thriving or breaking at the natural seems?
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Agreed. If ND and Texas are officially off the BigTen board, I’d prefer to just stick to 12 for now. One great addition. ND and/or Texas need to be on board to justify more than 12 imo.
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stay at 12? why? everything is going to 4 superconferences and 16 in each. WHy not be one of the first conferences so we can have the pick of teams and not be left behind with garbage?
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Because the pick of the teams is UT and ND.
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Can’t see staying at 12 if Pac 10 goes to 16….go with some combination of RU, Pitt, and Mo to get to 14, then wait.
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Because once ND and Texas are off the board, our pick remains a bunch of schools no one really qualifies as Tier 1 (ie. Nebraska, ND, and Texas).
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If the Pac-10 does succeed in getting 2 auto-bids, that’s definitely an argument for moving up to 14 or 16, though. Just something to factor in.
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The new PAC-10 recieving two automatic bids would set one Hell of a presidence though. This is why I think it won’t happen.
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Here’s the thing, let’s just assume that the ACC, SEC, and P10 go to 16 teams. And the B10 stays at 12. You might then believe those teams are forever gone and will never go to the B10. But I would argue that would open up doors. There are going to be a few disgruntled teams in one of those conferences. And it may be politically easier for a team to leave then becuse they won’t be destroying a conference and clearly we will be beyond some of the “tradition” arguments.
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I agree, stay at 12 unless you can get ND, then add one more to go to fourteen, anything beyond that is expanding for expansion sake.
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Not a Big Ten acolyte but I am surprised that posters want to expand beyond 12 after adding Nebraska. Why? Contrary to Patrick’s and Frank’s analysis, expanding to 12 ensures that everyone benefits financially; expanding to 14 or 16 does not guarantee a long-term financial gain. Nebraska adds to the value of the BTN and ensures that there will be a Big Ten championship — and it runs a high-qualtiy sports program.
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I think it will thrive as well as the other inevitable 16-team conferences will.
How’s that for ambiguity?
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I don’t think so. there is no pity. well except for you guys bringing along Hooterville CC and Westboro Baptist learning annex. (I kid I kid)
seriously if you guys are off the board for us we are heading northeast/midatlantic. Missouri doesn’t help that. just an opiunion.
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I don’t think so. I think the Big 10 is going to dine on filet mignon from here on out.
Rutgers or Pitt as an eastern partner for Penn State.
If some version of the “Dirty South/growth states” strategy is in play: Maryland, Virginia, UNC, Duke or Vandy could all be considered.
And there’s always that small school in South Bend to be considered.
Now that UT seems to be off the table, I don’t think brussels sprouts (MU) is on the menu anymore.
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Hopkins Horn,
That’s a good question. It really feels like Mizzou is getting played here. If they don’t get into any major conference this will have some pretty dire long term implications for the school and their athletics department.
This is such a big dollar realignment that I don’t think there’s going to be any room for “sympathy invitations.” Any school that joins the Big Ten has to bring in at least $22 M in revenue each year just to keep the original Big Ten schools at par.
There’s going to be some real hurt feelings here for a long time. See Iowa State, for example.
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I still think Missouri could come into play for the SEC if the Pac-10 raid of the Big 12 six is for real and it has no other western options. Remember, Missouri does border Kentucky, Tennessee and Arkansas.
If that doesn’t pan out, at least Mizzou and ISU can continue playing for the Telephone Trophy.
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if the Big 10 made a deal with missouri, then backed out. i think the orrin hatch group just added the sates of Kansas and missouri to their camps!
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You bet. So what do you do. The Big 3 BCS conferences need to conspire this way.
SEC – gets A&M/OU
B10 – gets Tex
P10 – already got CU, now gets Utah
BXII stays together with all the old schools minus UT/OU/A&M/Neb. What a boring conference. Add Nevada, Wyo, Boise, and New Mexico and now you have basically covered every state. Just give them an AQ in the BCS.
I just solved it. That was a lot easier than I thought.
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I don’t see why. Academics not so good. Marginal increase in footprint if St Louis is already opened by Illinois.
Much better opportunities in the east and mid-atlantic. Both in terms of markets and academics.
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My understanding is that Big 10 only gets .10 per TV in St L. area…not currently within the BT “footprint”…
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My take is that Delany will focus on other “harder to get” schools like Maryland and not focus on Missouri unless he needs a companion for a team…
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The notion is that Rutgers and Missouri would both come immediately upon being invited.
Thus, there’s not going to be any rush, so Delany and the Big Ten presidents will want to regroup and figure out whether they can get ACC schools…
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I agree Zeek;
Why grab Mizzou and Rutgers when they r a lock.
He has to have a plan B.
Heard a rumor on Van Pelt about va tech? that would open up an attempt at maybe uva and maryland.
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va tech to sec sorry
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Yes, w/out Texas I think we go back to the “Southern strategy” and add UNC (Delany’s alma mater) as the major target.
As a PSU person I would still like an eastern partner a la RU or Pitt, although MD would be worth the wait, especially if it opened up the ACC contingent for a home run addition (UNC).
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I think Rutgers is almost a lock without Texas, since we’re going to need schools that bring footprint eventually anyways.
The question is when, you guys may have to wait for Maryland to come in order for Rutgers to get an invite as a pair…
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Maryland’s not coming…….
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It wouldn’t be a pity invite. the only way the Big 10 will take anyone is if its advantageous to them in the long run. The way of the world. Look out for #1.
If the PAC16 happens and the Big 10 decides that St.Louis/Kansas City is worth it to them and that 16 is the ultimate goal, then Missouri is a great addition.
As I look around the east coast, I don’t see too many candidates that stand out above Missouri. I like Rutgers for the NJ market (and NYC doorstep)…but as for the actual schools academically and athletically, Mizzou would nudge out Rutgers. Pitt, Syracuse, BC? Eh. MD and UVA are interesting to me. Even Vandy.
Once UT and aTm are off the table, then I think Mizzou could get a look. (I know this is the opposite of what Texas is rumoring…that they’ll only come IF Mizzou gets invited too. I don’t buy that though.)
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MO’s academics are below the bottom of the Big Ten. No where near comparable to any of the east options except BC or maybe Syracuse.
MO might be last one in for geographic balance if ND is not interested and the Big Ten has picked up markets + academics (say UVa, MD, RU, Pitt)
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there are lots of rumors that if mizzu and rutgers are next; fox has a story right now
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At least the Black-Eyed Peas weren’t lipsyncing.
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I haven’t seen anything online, but I heard second hand that Scott Van Pelt announced aTn and V-Tech to the SEC. Take it with a big grain of salt.
Can anyone confirm he said this on his radio show?
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I can confirm that I put no credence in anything from SVP.
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I think Missouri will get in if the Pac16 thing happens.
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Without a doubt, the two big winners are…drumroll please…
Rose Bowl and Fox.
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I think you’re assuming that the Big 10 network will split 50 percent with Fox, they have retained one of the biggest Hollywood agencies, whose to say they aren’t going to be forming their own production company – why split 50 percent of the revenue with Fox if you can pay it out yourself.
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the production is the easy part. Fox also brings existing relationships with cable providers.
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Is that worth 49 percent? I think Scott’s vision is much bigger than simply aping the BIg10 deal. There is also a possibility they pull all their content and place it on the pac10/6 network. They might race past the Big10 tv payouts
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we shall see
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Sorry, I should have been more specific.
Rose Bowl, because it’s a bigger deal with over half of the B12 thrown in.
Fox, because they get P10 network plus whoever joins B10.
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…49% that is…
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Supposedly there is now some Va. Tech to the SEC rumor — which, if true, could mean UVa/UMd are headed to the Big Ten in tandem. Anyone hear anything?
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only from scott van pelt but he is not very credible as he also said atm was going too…
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That was a rumor with A&M and Va Tech.
Still, we would have to expect the Big Ten and SEC to try to peel off ACC teams if possible (no one knows what the case is)…
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@Vincent – Rumor is A&M and VT to SEC. Who knows whether that’s true, but we’ll find out after UT and A&M emerge from their version of the Dayton Accords.
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Frank, Outside the Lines just had that Orangebloods guy on who claims that if Texas and A&M split, they could lose out on revenue from a minerals right fund that the state of Texas puts together. Do you know anything about that fund, how much it is and what they could be losing if they split?
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@John – It’s the Permanent University Fund and it has a massive amount of money:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_University_Fund
However, it doesn’t have anything to do with conference affiliation. Otherwise, UTEP would need to be in the same conference as them (as it covers the entire UT and A&M systems).
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Thanks for the response, your reply led me to a good article explaining how Texas Legislators might attempt how to manipulate the process.
http://barkingcarnival.fantake.com/2010/05/24/conference-realignment-and-the-texas-legislature/
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@John: Frank is dead right. The PUF is constitutionally mandated, split between the UT (2/3) and A&M (1/3) systems. The only real interconnection there is that the PUF assets are managed for both schools by UTIMCO, but that really has nothing to do with anything else. For the PUF to be threatened, a constitutional amdnendment would have to get past the legislature (and the Aggie governor), and be approved by the voters.
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It was tossed out there and I hadn’t heard about it before which was why I asked. But if it requires a state amendment, then it’s a no go. Thanks for helping to sort through the chaff.
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If true, why would that mean that UVa and MD would be headed to the BT?
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@Frank – Do you have the details of the deal that Nebraska and the Big Ten worked out? You mentioned before a rumor that Nebraska would be given a full share of conference revenues and the network since they had to pay exit fees (and got the ball rolling).
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Wow, TexAgs.com honcho has fast-forwarded from pre-Fort Sumter to marching Sherman (the earlier one) reaching the GA coast. Soooooo downtrodden. Saying on the radio that the higher ups view the SEC as too risky. They think the worst case they become another MS St, realistic assessment is they’d be another AR (which has never won the SEC in football.)
Balloon deflating fast.
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Wish I could see all this to get the inflections.
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This captures the mood:
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Lol! Playoffs, your too much man.
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This captures the mood in Ames, Iowa and in Columbia, MO. But in Lincoln, Nebraska they’re throwing a world class party…..
The Huskers are going to get a chance at playing against the University of IOWA!
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So when does Appomattox arrive in College Station?
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ND should join the Big Ten- Lou Holtz on Sportscenter
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Wow, that’s really surprising. I’d love to see a video of that.
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the first and only good thing he has ever said!
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NDNation will be perplexed
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I saw Lou talk about this before about 3 weeks back. he was intentionally neutral. But seemed to be leaning to conference over independent as i recall. Recall that lou Holts also coached at the University of Minnesota. Did a good job doing one of their frequent revivals. Recruited well.
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Lou was an assistant under Woody as well. He has ties to the BigTen. That said, he’s always been an ND company man while on ESPN, so to hear him say they should join a conference is significant to me.
That said, NDNation has probably official disowned him. 😛
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lou also coached arkansas and south carolina
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And grew up in Ohio.
On NDNation, the discussion of what happened to Lou continues. Personally I just hope that his bosses are making him say that, a la Gene Smith.
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I dunno. Lou’s always been pretty transparent for his love of ND. To be honest I doubt he’d change his tune just because someone at ESPN told him to.
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I dunno. It would be a *huge* windfall for his current employers. Does ESPN/ABC/Disney/etc. have profit-sharing?
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True. But I still don’t see it. I see the Gene Smith argument, but I think the Lou might be too much for me. If Montana came out and said ND should join a conference, would you guys accuse Sketchers of telling him to say it? 😉
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lou is wetting his pants. that’s why he’s not an administrator.
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At this point I think the Big Ten is going to try to wait out Notre Dame or go for ACC schools that would complement the move like Maryland/Va if they budge.
There’s nothing to be gained now by randomly adding schools to the Big Ten. The Big Ten will just have to wait out Notre Dame as everyone watches the changes that come with a Pac-16.
I could see the Big Ten moving up to 14 if the right schools were on the table (Maryland/Rutgers or Maryland/Va), but that might not be in the cards…
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Move up to 14 with Maryland/Rutgers, shoring up parts of the NY and DC metro areas, then invite Notre Dame at #15, giving it the choice of choosing #16 from a pre-approved list (SU? UVa? Pitt?). If ND says no and you decide to go to 16 anyway, select two from that group, plus Missouri and Vanderbilt. (This is, of course, predicated on the Pac-10 annexation of the Big 12 half-dozen.)
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I think we’d stay at 14 until Notre Dame finally decides to join.
Which is why Maryland/Va or Maryland/Rutgers is probably going to be the focus of the next few weeks.
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Maryland’s not coming….
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Zeek,
Amen. The Big Ten is not going to take any one school to hope it starts the “dominos falling.” We don’t know if there are 2 or 4 open spots left in the Big Ten (I’m assuming Nebraska is #12), but we do know that those remaining openings are Very Valuable.
Mizzou just doesn’t make the cut on any level (academics, athletics, or market size). The Big Ten will not move unless #13 is another home run school, basically ND (I hate to say that) or UT.
The 12 schools we have now are a very stable and lucrative group. The fact of the matter is that there just aren’t many home run institutions out there. Everyone else (Mizzou, Pit, Rutgers) dilute the Big Ten (12).
Of course the Gators would be a Grand Slam Home Run. But that’s another story…..
So unless it’s ND or UT the Big Ten sits and waits.
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Yeah, I think we’re going to at least ask Maryland/Virginia to see if there’s any interest.
Those two would be worth expanding for since Texas is officially gone and we only need to save 1 of the spots for Notre Dame in the endgame.
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You’re wrong about Mo not making the cut on athletics or market size….agree that academics has always been an issue….but pretty shocked at how much Misery is being ragged on around here.
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Mushroom,
There seems to be other “unquantifiable” problems with Mizzou. Everyone in the Big XII seems to dislike the administration at Mizzou. It looks like they’re hard to get along with, Mizzou seems to be chronic complainers.
The Big Ten just doesn’t want that in the conference. … Is that you’re read? ….hope your not a Mizzou alum or anything….
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per Ohio State Message Board
http://ohiostate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=435&tid=134287386&mid=134287386&sid=917&style=2
Option 1: (preferred)
Notre Dame
Texas
Texas A&M
Mizzou
Option 2:
Notre Dame
Maryland
Virginia
Georgia Tech
Thoughts? Any legitimacy?
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Good options.
Option 3, do nothing.
I think GT is a very good fit. The only thing I don’t like about them is they are No. 2 in there state. The thing I do like – it would be great to get some overlap of the SEC and B10 (purely from a fan standpoint). So my option 3, would be GT and FSU.
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Well if Texas/A&M aren’t coming, we’re going after the ACC schools for sure.
The question is, are they willing to leave the ACC?
Maryland/VA/Rutgers is probably the best possible combination with Notre Dame. I don’t think GTech really moves the dial more than Rutgers in any case…
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Depends who posted it. But it’s probably just speculation like the rest of us.
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Hit Counter Update: 933,404
I see a convergence coming.
Super Death Star Conference at 1,000,000
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That would have been a good idea a couple of hours ago.
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I am watching the counter until I see Beebe (or any commish for that matter) in front of a microphone.
The proverbial Fat Lady needs to sing.
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Oh this is funny:
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Simple, yet genius.
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Funny. The pac16 will be quite the hotty cheerleader conference. Add those Texas uniforms to USC Song Girls, the UCLA girls, Oregon, Washington — must watch TV.
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LOL
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HEEEYYY! I posted “one of these things” first! No video, though…thanks for running with it.
Nice.
I insist that LSJUMB visits College Station every year, game or not. That town needs an enema.
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Most of these posts are great, but yours is outstanding!
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DRD,
outstanding!
monty,
this whole thing has not been about football but what conference will have the hottest cheerleaders.
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Turn out the lights, this one is done.
Pac-10: aTm, UT, OK State, OK, TTech, CO
B10: Neb
Big 12 is now defunct. The question is does anyone hang around for the payout now.
Yes: ISU, Baylor
Maybe: Kansas, K State, Mizz
If you are Mizz how sick are you right. Mizz = Sawyer on the sub with the bomb.
Mizz lit the fuse
Neb ran out the door
UT blew everything to kingdom come
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I don’t think Mizz lit the fuse. They knew it was ending (one way or another), they went on the offensive. It didn’t work out. They really just aren’t that attractive. Maybe they are as a #16 to B10 or SEC, but not on their own.
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I think Missouri suspected that they would be best off trying to grab the #12 spot with the Big Ten right from the start.
Once the expansion scenarios started rolling out though, it became obvious over the past two months that Nebraska would get the spot if Notre Dame didn’t want to join at #12 and stop…
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The Mizzou president’s comments about Texas Tech and Okie State are now the collegiate equivalent of Bill Terry’s offseason rhetorical statement, “Is Brooklyn still in the league?” People from St. Louis will get the allusion.
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Wrong. It was the Missouri governor that made those comments.
The University has not said a single word about Big 10 expansion this entire time. For whatever reason, people on this blog under the impression that Missouri has been publicly lobbying for a Big 10 spot. This is absolutely not the case.
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# NCAA finds USC had “relatively little effective monitoring.” 2 minutes ago via txt
# NCAA finds USC “failed to heed clear warning signs.” 2 minutes ago via txt
# NCAA hits USC no bowls two years and loss of 30 scholarships over 3 yrs 3 minutes ago via txt
# NCAA found “lack of institutional control” at USC 3 minutes ago via txt
RT @LATimesfarmer: With the hammer dropping on USC today, Los Angeles is losing its third pro football team since 1995.
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They have to fire AD Garrett. Good riddance to a dirty crook. Though I know exactly who will probably hire him next ( bound for politics…)
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Garrett has to be done, doesn’t he?
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Was there really any doubt something smelled out west when Pete took the seahawks job.
Can’t believe they actually came down hard on them.
Shantrel Henderson was sold a bill of goods by runaway lane.
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I love sanctions. When it happens to someone else. this just puts USC down to the level of the lower 3rd of the conference. Personally I favor bringing total scholarships down by ten across the board. The last time they dropped scholarships it made more teams more competitive over all. Because the perennial powers can’t horde talent.
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Lane Kiffin made his bed, now let him lie in it.
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@Mike R – If you’ve seen Lane Kiffin’s significant other, there’s no reason to get out of bed.
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hey-o!
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And yet, he’s one of the sexiest women alive…
http://www.esquire.com/women/the-sexiest-woman-alive/bracket-tournament/natalie-gulbis-vs-lane-kiffin
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Remember when they had the 5 Star High School Recruits All-Star game this spring, all those kids doing the “choose the hat” thing?
I remember thinking then how sorry I felt for some of them jumping onto the USC bandwagon, wasn’t hard to see this coming.
Should be interesting watching the recruits jump ship (and the stampede of college recruiters coming after them).
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Former SEC Chief thoughts on the subject
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=wojciechowski_gene&id=5272309
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That was a really nice article on how this time compares to the early 90s.
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add
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@ Vincent
Does Maryland perceive itself to be closely aligned/attached at the hip to UVa and the NC schools? Wondering how Md folks would view a Md/Rut expansion to B10.
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I think the ACC expansion a few years ago caused a lot of schools to rethink who they were aligned with. Prior to the expansion, the ACC schools were pretty closely aligned. The real outlier was FSU – because of geography and because they were simply so good.
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They would view it much more favorably than I would have expected even a few months ago, if Maryland message boards are indicative. I think many in College Park believe it’s time for a change, and are tired of being defined by the Duke basketball “rivalry” — one that could become as irrelevant decades from now as Maryland vs. N.C. State (remember those great games when David Thompson played for State?) is today.
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David Thompson was Jordan before Jordan, but injuries felled him. Also, he was the guy who brought down the UCLA empire. Very underrated person in CBB history.
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From my talks with people on the board, their mostly superficially concerned about losing those coveted meetings with Duke and NC. I think when you get them to think more about what they have to gain over all they start to change their orientation. I point out to them that they can meet Duke and NC in scheduled Non-con games as well as the annual ACC Big Ten challenge. And there is the added chance meeting in the NCCA tournament.
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vincent,
the day Everett Case left Indiana to coach basketball at NC State is the day the ACC became basketball relevant. I am sure Maryland and NC State would love to get away from the shadow of UNC vs Duke.
the terps AD is kentucky’s former basketball coach (ie a pro basketball vs pro football person).
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Kentucky is pro basketball. In both senses.
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That was the 5’4”- 6’4”-7’4” M. Towe-D. Thompson-T. Burleson NCState team & a great one.
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Maybe that smirk on Delany’s face will be wiped off now that the PAC10, who aren’t constrained by the archaic thinking of the BT, ate his lunch. Gordon Gee tried to kick him in the ass, explaining that the window of opportunity was closing, but no. Big Ten protocol had to be followed.
All the Big Ten would have had to do was take Texas Tech and we would be looking at TX, ND and Nebraska in the Big Ten. Now he’s going to end up with third rate leftovers in mediocre recruiting states.
The Big Ten, as of today and likely forever, is the number three conference. Please don’t pretend otherwise. Wow.
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I think that is unfair. We don’t really know what happened, but if Tech was a no, what was he to do. Surely, the planned on what would happen if Neb said yes, ND said no, and it then came down to UT/A&M/Tech.
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You’ve got at least one home run in Nebraska, maybe two with Notre Dame. Right now, Delany probably wants to secure some doubles and triples (Rutgers and Maryland) to ensure a big inning. You don’t get that by compromising your principles for a Tier 3 school like Texas Tech. This isn’t the SEC, where football uber alles.
And New Jersey and Maryland aren’t mediocre recruiting states.
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Virginia (particularly the Tidewater region) has been pumping out loads of talent for decades now.
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Sounds to me like the Big Ten was never really in play for A&M from the start, and Texas didn’t want to come alone…
As for the Tech thing, we’re not desperate like the Pac-10 to go to 16.
As long as Notre Dame is still around, and the ACC has schools that are worth looking at, the Big Ten is fine.
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We had more options than the pac ten did. That said, the two biggest single options were TX and ND. As far as academics, viewership and new territoies, the BT will be fine even without one or the two. Nebraska is well above colsolation prize.
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Look at a map.
It would have been a tough sell without Big Ten parameters.
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And yet, Stanford and Cal (if the deal goes through) were somehow able to come to terms with the Tech ‘travesty’.
Are their reputations going to be tarnished as a result of it? Of course not. No one will ever give it a thought.
Gordon Gee was right. The Big Ten controlled their own destiny for a short period of time, but refused to act. The Pac10 saw an opening and took it.
Based on Gee’s e-mail concerning the ‘tech’ problem, I would assume that was the stumbling block to a deal with Texas. What else could it mean?
I realize the PAC 10 deal (as is) could never be topped by the Big Ten. I don’t blame Delany for that. My disappointment stems from the fact that I believe, like Gee, that there was an opportunity early on that the Big Ten (perhaps by no fault of Delany’s) refused to seize upon.
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You are thinking as a fan… I am glad the Big 10 is thinking about academics fist. TT does not make the cut, they should not be part of the Big 10 and CIC. I am happy they did not cave. I was a fan of UT to the Big Ten, but I am happy I will get to see them play in Tempe now.
I look at it as holding the integrity of the conference and not a loss.
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Disagree. As a Baylor grad who has ties to both UT and Tech, I don’t think a big package of TX/OK schools was ever going to be a good fit in B10. Better that the B10 continues to focus on good institutional fit, as it has with Nebraska, and let the more diverse P10 (which already includes both Stanford and Wazzu) absorb the various TX characters.
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Forever #3. That’s a bit of an over-exaggeration is it not? We all must continue to be reminded that the Big Ten is not a professional sports organization. It is a collection of institutions of higher learning with education as it mission. The B(1)T will never be number 3. Unless all you do is open the Sunday paper to see the football articles. If so, I’m OK with that. There are good solid reasons why the University of Chicago stopped competing athletically at the Big ten level. They found the compromise too great.
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You’ll be surprised to learn that I agree with you 100%.
I just don’t happen to believe that Texas Tech is a bad academic gamble- at all-for the Big Ten.
Let’s watch Texas Tech thrive in the Pac16 (if it occurs) and in twenty years we can all laugh at the fact that Texas isn’t in the Big Ten because of the BT’s short sighted opinion of Texas Tech.
Lest we forget the humble beginnings of several Big Ten schools.
Michigan State Cow College anyone?
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And there continues to be some schism between haughty UM and MSU I understand. This is much ado about nothing. Michigan has a nationally known graduate program and MSU does not in comparison. It does not make MSU poor choice for under grads. But forcing Texas Tech on the conference in a package deal probably crosses a line. This more of a marriage than a one niter
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There is a lot more baggage than just TT involved here. OU and OSU would never get an invite to the Big Ten.
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Too bad there’s no edit function Great. JD’s smirk may be permanent…If the below is accurate, you can expect ND and Syr/Rut to follow soon.
http://www.kctv5.com/sports/23860558/detail.html
KANSAS CITY, Mo. — High level sources in multiple conferences have told KCTV5 that Texas and Texas A&M are looking to move to the Big Ten Conference and have petitioned for membership, while the University of Oklahoma is planning on petitioning the Southeastern Conference to become a member of its conference.
KCTV5’s sources said that Texas and Texas A&M do not have to include Texas Tech or Baylor in their plans. Sources told KCTV5 that there have already been discussions about the two schools entering the Big Ten and that the agreement could be made as soon as Thursday.
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If that’s true I’m smirk all the way to a confessional, gladly.
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I’ll smirk
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This says the rumor is false
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Umm…anybody else notice this is coming out of Missouri? Now who in Missouri would have an interest in stirring the pot, lol. How the hell would they know what UT and TAMU are going to do.
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Doubt it. Tx wanted the Pac 10. A&M wanted the SEC. Not much JD could have done about it.
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If the VT rumor is true and they accept an SEC invite, is this an opening for the Big 10 to sweep up Md, Va, NC?
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You’d need more than that though. VaTech may not be able to leave if they feel beholden to UVA for getting them into the discussion the last time around…
To really pull in UNC you’d have to take NC State, Duke, but maybe not Wake Forest. Also GTech, Virginia, and Maryland would come and VaTech/Clemson/FSU/Miami to the SEC.
Essentially you’d be dividing it up somewhat between the SEC and Big Ten…
But I don’t see that happening. More than likely NC is nowhere near being in play whether now or ever.
Maryland may be able to be put in play and the Va/VTech thing is interesting to watch…
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zeek,
Va Tech can run both ways, it can free MD to the Big 10 but could send Va Tech / UVA / UNC / NC State to the SEC.
FSU, Clemson, Miami, and Ga Tech are not SEC bound unless there is nothing left. If the Pac 16 and Big 16 is about expanding footprint, an SEC 16 would be the same logic.
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Good comment by the guys on WHB in KC: “This is election night. We’ve called some of the races for governors and county commissioner, now we’re waiting for the presidential. And that’s Texas.”
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Chip Brown on CFB Live- If it wasn’t for the fact that the conference was breaking up, there might have been a vote to kick Missouri out.
Make of that what you will.
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Jesse Palmer’s Heatmiser haircut is annoyingH
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So when is the Pac-16 HQ moving to Dallas? Chop, chop.
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And have the conference title game in the state of the art JerryDome. Why have it anywhere else besides the league’s best facility 🙂
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Oh. NOW you agree. 🙂
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HH,
I told you this ages ago and you were the one to pooh pooh the Jerryworld angle! i was also the one sending 6 to the Pac 10 but I think I had Kansas instead of Baylor!
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Well when we get our two auto-bid we’ll have one at JerryWorld and one at the Rose Bowl…works for me. I honestly had no problem moving the game there. Its not like KC is any better for Colorado fans so might as well have it at the best facility in the world. It was the the KU/MU/NU group that KC was convenient for, so I had no problem with CU voting with the Texas schools on that one, unless the North schools had been willing to rotate Denver in as one of the sites. Not like the weather in November is any worse in Denver than KC, often its better.
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I vote for Glendale.
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Wish List.
NEB, ND, PITT, Maryland, UVA.
Betting ND can carry NY market with existing Big Ten Alumni. neutral site games still in play from NY, Chicago, D.C. lots of opportunity there.
The product just seems stronger with Pitt included. (Again my bias v. Rutgers showing strong)
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did I mention tx aTm were my first wish list.
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ND, GT, MD, RU
New York, Atlanta, D.C.
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http://www.kctv5.com/sports/23860558/detail.html
TX and aTm have petitioned to join Big Ten
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High level sources in multiple conferences have told KCTV5 that Texas and Texas A&M are looking to move to the Big Ten Conference and have petitioned for membership, while the University of Oklahoma is planning on petitioning the Southeastern Conference to become a member of its conference.
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Great link posters think alike… 🙂
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well, zeek, you may have to retract some of your statements!
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WHAT… is what I’d like to say, but we have to see more news to really believe this kind of thing.
Even Chip Brown is skeptical…
There’s a Kansas City TV report saying Texas and A&M to the Big Ten. That would be news to those schools. 2 minutes ago via TweetDeck
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hey i said MAY for a reason bcuz you have generally been spot on with these things.
But you have this station who has MULTIPLE sources, frank, and the NW site.
chip brown has been wrong numerous times throughout this week.
Not saying which way is right as we will see, but there are more credible sources out there saying texas/atm have been talking b10 than have not.
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Yeah, he might be wrong again.
Of course I am hoping he’s wrong this time.
We need something to actually happen publicly, like someone to say they’re splitting off the Pac-10 package.
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i agree zeek.
(i cannot reply to your last reply)
I hope its true as well.
We will see though.
If not, its another rumor proven wrong.
*shrug*
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You have to remember that they tell Chip Brown whatever disinformation they want him to spread. They’re not about to tell him something that might disrupt actual negotiations.
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If UT and aTm were going to the Pac-10, they wouldn’t have to kiss off Tech, just Baylor. But Tech was excluded from the morning meeting (it appears) and Baylor (which is almost certainly being cut loose) & Tech are together in the afternoon meetings (so it seems from the reporting).
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WHAT
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Great! You just knew that the Pacific 10 were going to get played. In these type of big time business deals YOU NEVER MOVE FIRST. The First Mover Is the Loser.
Plus it never made sense to send a bunch on mismatched Texas schools to the the Pac 10. It makes more sense that they’d grab the U of Tokyo….
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Yeah, I know I suggested Waseda before over the Tokyo U. Warriors, but now I’m leaning toward Hosei.
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FLP,
Hosei over Waseda are you serious! Hosei is much better in size and overall potential, what makes you think Hosei is in the same category?
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I was thinking more academic than football. But after seeing Waseda’s research rankings, I think Hosei would bring better football and be a better choice. They just need to change their name, “Tomahawks” won’t fly in a conference where Stanford stopped being the Indians.
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If Texas and A&M to the Big Ten is true what is Nebraska thinking right now, “Aw damn I thought we got away from Texas!” or were they in on the bit?
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In on it; Perlman and Powers trust each other more on conference matters to act in each others interest as many posters have mentioned before…
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wtf???
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Who knows who the sources are, but this would mesh with the NW board rumor from today:
Texas Hold ‘Em: Longhorns, A&M To Big Ten
Oklahoma Looking To Move To SEC, Needs 1 Other School
http://www.kctv5.com/sports/23860558/detail.html
I’m not saying I believe it, just wanted to pass it along. KCTV5 is the CBS affiliate in Kansas City (“heartbreak central”).
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Fun to have all these rumors. I’m happy if OU goes SEC, or to Pac so long as UT is going to Pac.
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this jives with what frank and PBC (NW) have been saying. Looks like multiple sources instead of one source. Getting more credible.
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the weird part of that article is the TMZ sports comment about OSU going to the Pac 10.
Anytime I here TMZ I get scared.
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Sitting and watching now. Still think Pac-10 is better positioned to bring in UT, since they can offer Tech, which Big 10 probably will not.
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Yeah, it is interesting though that Texas and A&M met together and then went and spoke to Tech and Baylor together.
That might mean that what they tell them is a decision affecting both the same way (i.e. ditching)…
Just throwing that out there…
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Yes that may have been an “it’s not you, it’s me” kind of meeting. Which would bring the Big 10 back into the equation. The head spins.
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Please let it be true. Slive can lick our collectively better educated asses.
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Like I said, if Delaney gets UT/A&M without Tech and can then get Tech, we should nominate him for Sec State. That would be an incredible power grab that took place in a relatively short period of time. May not happen, but if it does. WOW.
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I’ll be his own personal ACORN
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Do Texas and aTm have to apply like Nebraska is, by getting their Board of Regents together and voting, or can their respective presidents do this on their own?
Or can their regents “vote” via text messages and cell phones like the Big10 is doing?
It would be nice if this were true and done by this evening.
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I’m pretty sure the voting thing for the Big Ten is different than it is internally within a school. There are generally requirements for when things can be discussed and public records, etc. as well for these kinds of things…
Whereas the Big Ten doesn’t have to do that because it’s just finding out what the heads of the universities are saying…
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What if they do it after Neb joins, and Neb is the final vote voting No.
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So far today, A&M has been reported or rumored to join the Pac 10, the Big 10, and the SEC. Awesome.
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Texas A&M to the ACC confirmed (the Gulf of Mexico does connect to the Atlantic Ocean, close enough).
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TA&M to the English Premier League. TA&M AD’s head explodes after he looks at travel costs.
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plz eric, no it hasnt.
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Sorry. Given the rumors around I should have added a smile face.
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“Texas A&M to the ACC confirmed (the Gulf of Mexico does connect to the Atlantic Ocean, close enough).”
When I saw this in my email my first thought was “whoa, source?”, then I realized it was a joke…
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CUSA didn’t want them.
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You know, that would be a fun press release. If I was CUSA, just to get in the news, why not release a statement that says:
“After careful deliberation among our member institutions, we will not be extending an invitation to the University of Texas at this time.”
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That would rock.
Just as I had wished I was that guy, back 20 years ago when few players came out early, who declared himself eligible for the NBA draft. Normal student, not a player, but declared himself eligible nonetheless. His school’s coach received multiple inquiries from NBA teams requesting tape.
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HH,
more recent
http://clubtrillion.blogspot.com/
Big 10 basketball guy at tOSU declared for the draft and was major bench warmer. Put some egg on the NBA face when he did it.
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@duffman – That guy is unbelievably hilarious. He needs a sports media job.
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I remember that guy. His Tweets were hilarious if I recall correctly.
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Frank,
he must be a Big 10 thing, once you get out of Big 10 basketball footprint people look at you with puzzled expressions and blank stares. I agree, maybe he could replace dicky v or mustyburger. I am older but even I can see these guys are past their expiration date.
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In the Big XII, the running joke would be that, “Rick Barnes has denied interest in joining the ________ conference.”
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Curious, Tom Crean also calls press conferences to announce that he isn’t a candidate for jobs.
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Wanted – new conference home for large state school located in the heart of America. Enjoy being on the wrong end of major conference games. Some would consider us a swing state. Huck Finn knows all about us (he he). Willing to play all road games for 3 years. Please call.
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“So far today, A&M has been reported or rumored to join the Pac 10, the Big 10, and the SEC. Awesome”
The scheduling will be tricky, but we can do it!
Normal Saturday during football season (all times central):
10 am: A&M plays at Michigan State in divisional play. Broadcast on BTN
2:30 pm: A&M plays at Kentucky in a cross-divisional breather. Broadcast regionally on SEC network affiliates.
8 pm: After a half hour bye, A&M hosts UCLA in a key cross-divisional matchup broadcast nationally on ABC.
We’ll have to keep our west coast trips to weekend night games, or maybe when we have Big 10 and SEC byes.
But this will be great for our exposure. There will be weeks when ABC will doubtless show a Texas A&M doubleheader in the morning and afternoon, followed by a CBS evening broadcast!
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m (Ag) – you may have to adjust your timeline when the Ags play on CBS. Typically close to 4 hour games. So many commercials.
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More from the Northwestern Rivals site:
“In the state of Texas, people don’t tell fill-in-the-blank-ethnic jokes. They tell Aggie jokes. I kid you not. It wasn’t until I left Texas that I heard fill-in-the-blank-ethnic jokes, and I thought, “Hey! Those are Aggie jokes!””
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Those Northwestern alums are pretty smart.
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You’d better salute when you say that! LOL 🙂
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Just throwing this out there, but might this not work out decently for the remaining Big 12? If Texas, A&M and Nebraska to Big Ten, OK to SEC, OKSt and Colorado to Pac-10, that leaves 6 teams in the Big 12. I think I remember reading here that 6 is the minimum number of teams having played together for X number of years for a conference to keep its Automatic Qualifying BCS Bid. The remaining 6 invite whichever teams from the Mountain West/WAC they want, refill, and have a much easier road to the BCS.
Sure, the conference isn’t going to get much in the way of a TV deal, but it’s still an AQ conference, which is a heck of a lot better than Kansas, et al was looking at otherwise.
This whole thing is getting a little crazy.
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Pretty damn sure OSU ain’t coming to the Pac 10 without OU. However, this might work out great for Kansas, Utah, and maybe even MU. Money wouldn’t be the same but the academics would be good and the league would be competitive.
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CU to Pac10 done
OkSt to Pac10 done?
Utah?
KU and Kstate?
Mizzou or Tech?
OU to SEC?
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If the SEC gets OU and Tech is unaccounted for, SEC takes Tech to insure access to TVs in Texas.
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What if Cal and Stanford are totally against inviting the B12 South? Could they ever move to the B10? I suppose it would be easier for Stanford – a non-state school. Politically could be tough for Cal to leave. But what if Standford and ND came over together? Would anybody at this point just totally dismiss the idea? The conference would stretch from coast to coast.
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In my best Judy Tenuta voice ‘it could happen’
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fwiw from the same Colorado source I mentioned earlier
“Things are balanced on a knife-edge. Hard negotiating happening. CU’s move shook everything up. Expect the dam to break this weekend.”
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This is making my head hurt. It needs to end.
I propose we get the Big 10, Pac 10, SEC and ACC together in one room and do this fantasy football draft style.
Draw names out of a hat to see who gets to pick first (Texas, of course) and then let’s get this over with.
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Only to see UT get slapped with the death penalty. Just like Tom Brady going down in game 1. Would be fun to see B10 laugh when SEC takes Mizzou.
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robert,
if this thing gets ugly, congress might intervene and then we should look at the breakup up AT&T and Standard Oil for reference.
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Crazy thought: Could TX and aTm to the B10+ (if true) shift NE to the P10? A report earlier this week said the P10 was looking at CO and NE to go to 12. Could make a P16 again possible.
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Why though, wouldn’t Texas/A&M want to come with Nebraska…
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From NW site:
“College Station, Texas, based sources close to Texas A&M confirm the scenario of Texas A&M, Texas and Nebraska joining the Big 10, bringing the total to 14.
……….
Sources also confirmed the rift with Texas Tech and Baylor is that “UT and A&M have joined together in this decision”. By adding this trio, UT does not “go to war alone in a new conference” when ongoing issues arise. This scenario also appeases the Texas legislators seeking to avoid any role in any decision (unless its popular and they can later take credit for it). It ensures there will be Texas based programming each weekend, and “Texas based Big Ten football in Texas every Saturday” in the fall, a key element to the negotiations. No empty Saturdays for the State of Texas, or the Big Ten Network.
So it appears Texas is covered.
………..
Now looking to the east, the source confirms a combination of Notre Dame, Syracuse and Rutgers will join in the next phase, bring the mega conference to 16. This secures the New York/New Jersey megamarket. Notre Dame says no more than 14. but does the Leprechaun have any clothes at this point?”
Link: http://kentsterling.com/2010/06/10/big-ten-expansion-texas-and-texas-am-may-choose-big-ten/
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Who is this Sterling dude? Is this Sport Media or Opinion?
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Apparently program director of some station? Either way he got canned earlier this year.
The cynical man would read this diatribe and apply it to him miraculously having inside information suddenly tying Texas/TA&M to the BigTen.
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The article wasn’t even written by Kent Sterling, but some dude named Pauly Balst, whose bi-line reads “Pauly Balst has a very solid reputation and track record in speculative journalism and for-profit amatuer [sic] athletics.”
Suffice it to say, I’m going to take this with a considerable grain of salt.
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What a clown.
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From the comments:
“Now we hear that Mark Cuban is becoming involved. As an Indiana grad, there is nothing he would like to see more than the Hoosiers show up in Austin and College Station periodically. “
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This would also lend credence to the reports that the Nebraska and UT presidents enjoyed the closest relationship in the Big 12. Maybe they worked together to get both schools to the Big Ten, and this was the plan all along.
I’m a little confused about the end of post (speaking on the east). How could the Big Ten take RU, SU, and ND but stay at 16? Or was the writer trying to say that some combination of 2 of those 3 teams would be joining?
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So, at #15 and #16 Rutgers and Notre Dame, or Syracuse and Rutgers if Notre Dame says no? At this point (assuming Texas and aTm are in) Why is there still a possibility of Notre Dame declining?
Likely the PAC-11 won’t stay that way, he just can’t confirm anything and is working the phones like everyone else since other perspective schools haven’t had time to decide (or vote) to join yet.
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It would be Notre Dame and Rutgers or Notre Dame and Syracuse.
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Oh ok, thanks! I was confused, because it said Notre Dame could be left out.
So what reservations are there about Rutgers now then? Or what about Syracuse looks better now?
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Notre Dame and Maryland would also be possible.
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Why go to 16? I guess if ND wants to join you can take them. You could just stay at 15 for a while too.
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Pac-10 to only stay at Pac-11????
http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/longhorns/entries/2010/06/10/pac10_commish_m.html?srcTrk=RTR_504016
What is going on here?
“I’d say that (having an 11-team conference) is a possibility,” Scott said.
He also said that no assurances and that no invitations have been issued to any other Big 12 schools, including Texas and Texas A&M, whose athletic directors met on Thursday in Austin to discuss their future.
“There are several different scenarios,” Scot siad. “There is no defined timetable” for further Pac-10 expansion.
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michst8bball14, I may have to go back on what I was saying…
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Let’s go together.
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did b10 and texas put put big false pa16 rumors?
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Man that may be the biggest head scratcher ever?
I need a drink.
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Nothing to see here. What else could he possibly have said at this moment?
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What I mean is, doesn’t that discredit
http://www.tmz.com/2010/06/10/oklahoma-state-pacific-10-ncaa-conferences-football-big-12/
TMZ ran with this thing on OSU, but now it doesn’t seem like the Pac-10 is confirming that…
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Heck, if the initial report that he had the power to 1)Not expand 2)Invite Colorado and Utah 3) Invite 6 schools or 4)Envelop the whole Big XII… it makes no sense that he would do this, but couldn’t he just be chasing Colorado and Utah?
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Someone with loose lips and ties to OSU has a friend who works at TMZ, and leaked what will be officially coming in the very near future.
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Well I thought Stanford would have to play the bad guy, but looks like Scott just decided to handle it himself.
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Those quotes are coming from the PAC10/Colorado media teleconference, I’m listening to it right now.
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Why would the Pac10 offer invites to teams that have applied to the Big 10?
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add+
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Classic line about politicians.
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http://kentsterling.com/2010/06/10/big-ten-expansion-texas-and-texas-am-may-choose-big-ten/
College Station, Texas, based sources close to Texas A&M confirm the scenario of Texas A&M, Texas and Nebraska joining the Big 10, bringing the total to 14.
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Eh, it reads like this guy is just guessing.
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This has the intensity of that hockey game last night. Could go either way. Let’s get the predictions out there.
I’ll be the optimist and say UT/A&M go to the B10?
Hopkins/Zeek – what do you think.
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I still have them in the P10 with Tech, Ok and Okie light.
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Well there’s some confirmation now from the Kent Sterling piece.
The bits about guaranteeing a game in Texas every Saturdays and Texas boosters being unhappy about travel into the Pacific also make sense. Those kinds of details are what you don’t get from something that’s at the stage of a random rumor.
I mean this definitely seems to be a lot further thought along than previous rumors.
I.E. it’s like the NW Rivals rumor about 7 game conference schedules for ND and Texas, etc.
I think there’s a not-so-remote chance that it is credible.
Even though Chip Brown hasn’t really heard it, he’s been mostly privy to sources about Texas -> Pac-10 and his information about Nebraska -> Big Ten has mostly been disproven. Thus, we can assume that if the situation were to change towards Texas/A&M to the Big Ten, then Chip Brown might be the last person to know.
I would say the odds are there that this might work out, but less than even until we see more smoke.
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Just be skeptical until you see something much more concrete.
As of now it’s Pac-16 mode.
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Zeek! ZEEK!!! [slap to face] It’s over, man. OVER! Let it go! It’s OK!
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Alright, fine. You’re right.
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So what’s the deal with Tech? In for the Pac-16? Why weren’t they included in the a.m. meetings with UT & aTm, then? I’m just saying the facts as we know them still reflect uncertainty.
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I think it might have had more to do with talking certain members of the A&M contingent off the SEC ledge.
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If you’re using last night’s hockey game as an analogy, I’m seeing the part where the Hawks are lifting the Cup over their heads as to how close to “done” this is.
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Uh oh. TX and aTm secret meeting location discovered by Baylor, TT, UH, KS, KSU, MO, ISU, TCU, SMU, Rice, UTSA…
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lol
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RIP Dorothy Provine, UW (Washington) grad.
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Playoffs Now
While we disagree on politcs (our opinons of Ken Starr and Bill Clinton are 180 degrees apart from one another), we love the same movie.
My only disappointment in your clip is that you didn’t show Ethel Merman slip on that banana peel.
Maybe, just maybe, the future for the Kansas Jayhawks is buried under a big W.
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Playoffs,
Great movie! I would say with the rumors that will fly in the next week or so, it will really fit the current situation.
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Gottlieb said he will dismantle the KC rumor next on ESPN.
He also said USC didn’t deserve such a sentence fro the actions of one person.
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What part of “lack of institutional control” doesn’t Mr. Gottlieb understand. That’s far more then a one-person failure.
Lots of good reporters have been on this story for a long time — Katz, Greenstein e.g. Wait til they surface.
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Katz, Teddy G. on the expansion story … not the SC story.
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Gottlieb says aTm and Texas can’t go anywhere without Tech. He gives the political answer.
Than he says it can’t possibly work logistically.
And says it will never happen.
Mr. Gottlieb folks.
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Yeah, boy, he really shot that one down.
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KU just fired Lew Perkins, er, he’s resigning after next school year. This has been the most disastrous two or three months in the history of KU.
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Kansas begins to orderly shut down their athletic department. AD retires
http://www.ktka.com/news/2010/jun/10/ku-athletics-director-lew-perkins-resign/?breaking
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Good career move. Maybe the ADs of KSU, Mizzou, and ISU should do the same. Better to say, “Hey, when I left we were still in a major conference – don’t blame me.”
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Did you see that kctv thing had video?
http://www.kctv5.com/video/23862045/index.html
not terribly convincing.
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Hello mamma, I aint in kansas any more!?!
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Do you think that’s what this is? I hope Kansas is trying to install an AD that can get something done for them…but I don’t think any would take that job right now w/o a conference to go to. this might be our first step to the mwc. shit maybe we don’t even get invited. WE WON A NC TWO YEARS AGO!!!
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This probably has more to do with the ticket scandal than the conference problem.
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It could also be cleaning up their mess in prelude to an offer from another conference.
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Are OU and A&M putting the squeeze on Texas??
Would Texas fear at all a scenario where they OU and A&M went to the SEC together? Could that be the leverage they need to pull UT out to the P10 with them?
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OU can’t really put the squeeze on Texas.
Texas only cares that A&M goes with it. As long as A&M doesn’t help the SEC open a massive recruiting congo line into the SEC, I don’t think Texas minds ending up in the Pac-10.
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Right except it looks like it aTm goes to SEC Oklahoma will be right on the bootheels which apparently scares Mack Brown and the AD at Texas.
If the proposition didn’t scare Texas then they would have already called either Larry Scott or Jim Delaney and made their move.
The other option is that Mike Slive is working feverishly on two significant academic brands to add to the mix in an effort to appease UT academic folks…
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john,
in an early post my thought was UT / A&M / UVA / UNC type academic grouping. keeps it in the south, and keeps it with the state schools.
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@duffman
Exactly, or maybe SEC expansion includes Rice and Georgia Tech.
If the SEC expansion is 4 AAU members all of the sudden the advantages of the Pac-10 start to be whittled away. The new 16 team SEC would have 6 AAU member plus UGA who is apparently ‘on track’ for the designation.
Throw in some kind of SEC academic consortium modeled after the CIC and you can see Texas being moved…
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These are the type of concessions you can make if Kent’s website is to be believed.
1. A game in Texas every Saturday – no problem.
2. UT-A&M every Thanksgiving night – no problem.
3. Every 3rd/4th year, B10 CCG at JerryWorld – no problem.
4. No tech, no Baylor – no problem.
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Delany would probably throw in guaranteed rivalries for each of Texas/A&M.
(I know I know Hopkins Horn, this is all made up…)
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Let us dream Hopkins – at least for a little while.
I would guarantee that you get 2 of the big 4 (Neb, OSU, Mich, PSU) every year at home, or whatever you can do. I think you want as many games of those played as possible.
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One hundred thousand years ago, a caveman was out hunting on the frozen wastes when he slipped and fell into a crevasse. In 2010, he was discovered by some web surfers and thawed out. He then went to law school and became.. Unfrozen Caveman College Conference Expansion Lawyer.
“He used to be a caveman,
but now he’s a lawyer.
Unfrozen Caveman College Conference Expansion Lawyer!”
(Who needs ESPN when we have Frank?)
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what the hell are we going to do all day when this is over?
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I care way more about college football now than I do during the season. Unbelievable.
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Well Hank I don’t know about anyone else but I may be able to get some of my work done. I have been reading Frank’s blog for a while now I really hope my Ags do go to the Big 10.
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Same here. This is like before the NFL draft where you care about all the potentials more than what happens at the end of the season after your teams are out.
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zeek,
i never blog about anything, and yet here i am like a moth to the flame. I am a basketball guy and I am glued to football conversations.
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Work
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Well said. ESPN, SI etc., they are about as relevant right now as typewriters. Frank and other non-UT puppet bloggers have completely displaced mainstream sports media. Have you checked SI.com looking for “breaking” news in the last two weeks?
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Personally I like SI.com, but I agree it’s more of a place for analysis than for breaking news.
Keep in mind that the first place that suggested Nebraska was Mandel.
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Yeah, for online analysis, I take SI.com anyday over ESPN.com. But that is also because it is all free. For something like this, what can ESPN or SI do? They aren’t going to break rumors, and that has been a lot of what is going around. I guess that is why it is nice to have a blog like this where we can all share our collective thoughts.
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Way to discount the reporter who broke the story. Stop drinking the burnt orange haterade.
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Not meant as a dig at you, Frank. Just that this guy seems to particularly hate UT and doesn’t seem to realize that it was a “UT puppet” who broke the story.
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Awe, and I was lovin’ all your posts HH. Am fine w/ UT and I want them in the B10. As for the puppet, he got one thing right and it was clearly fed to him. If you watch this guy discuss the B10 on tv (saying B10 “couldn’t bag Neb” and “will be left holding the bag”), it becomes evident that he has credibility up there with Craig James.
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PAC 10 happy at eleven?
In a teleconference Thursday, Pac-10 commissioner Larry Scott said that his conference won’t necessarily pluck any other Big 12 schools besides Colorado, which announced this afternoon that it was leaving.
“I’d say that (having an 11-team conference) is a possibility,” Scott said.
He also said that no assurances and that no invitations have been issued to any other Big 12 schools, including Texas and Texas A&M, whose athletic directors met on Thursday in Austin to discuss their future
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Link
http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/longhorns/entries/2010/06/10/pac10_commish_m.html?srcTrk=RTR_504016
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To be fair that mostly came out of some leading questions from some of the reporters. Maybe they would stop at 11 if the Big 12 decides to give it a shot a holding things together?
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I’d bet if the PAC-11[? is that what we’re going with at this point?] doesn’t get the BXII platter, they’ll pick up MWC Utah.
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Over on the Wildcats message board, someone posted that Scott Van Pelt on his ESPN radio show said that “Virginia Tech and Texas A&M are going to the SEC”. This isn’t first hand info from me so it is not confirmed. The dominoes keep falling
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which wildcats??
UK? AZ? KSU? V?
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Lol Northwestern doesn’t have a particularly unusual mascot and with Nebraska joining even “NU” is ambiguous…
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M,
when he said it was Va Tech and SEC, thought maybe it was an outside source. It is getting confusing at least we know tOSU is not okie state.
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Guys, not that I want to throw more out there to support this story, but remember that strange tweet from Chip Brown yesterday?
Nebraska and Texas officials are denying what Orangebloods.com is reporting. Let’s see how it plays out. I like our chances. about 18 hours ago via TweetDeck
Could that have anything to do with what’s going on?
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SLAP!
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OH HAPPY DAYS!
If (just saying IF) the University of Texas, Ta&m and Nebraska are joining the Big Ten we have hit the lottery!
With only two slots open you know the folks in South Bend have to be pretty concerned right now. Should the Big Ten even consider asking Notre Dame to dance? They certainly don’t meet the “big public school” image of the New Big Ten.
Maybe the best value the Big Ten can get for the remaining two openings is from two of the following three: Maryland, Rutgers, Syracuse…..
You can bet the folks in South Bend will be returning any calls that Jim Delaney makes to them. But should Big Jim call them at all?
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If that is the case, I see no reason why the B10 has to go to 16. Doesn’t it seem reasonable to have a cooling off period. Let the 3 new members assimilate into the B10. This gives ND a few more years as an independent while allowing the alums to get around to the idea that they may have to eventually join. On the flip side, what if ND continues to flounder. Maybe in 5 years, there is just no value there. ND would only have itself to blame. However, if there is still value and at that point the B10 is ready to go to 16, you can take ND.
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SH,
Great Argument! IF the Big Ten picks up the big 3 (Neb, UT and Ta&m) we stop at 14. Notre Dame would need the Big Ten WAY more than the BT needs ND. Waiting a few years might open the door to MD and VA joining the Big Ten and they would add more dollars than ND.
The IRISH could be the big losers here.
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No no. Let’s not be hasty here.
Notre Dame is a national brand that exists without a footprint. It’s a unique phenomenon of sorts. The Big Ten won’t turn them down when they finally do come on board.
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Okay, you have a point Zeek, but now ND and their alumni will have to come and ask us very nicely if the “Big Ten will please let the Irish come and play.”
Of course you are right ND brings in the big bucks for the Hawkeyes and everyone else, but I don’t mind sticking it to them. Maybe they could pay us a premium to be allowed to join the Big Ten…..
Oh, and I wouldn’t mind seeing the Hawkeyes beat them at Kinnick stadium either.
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I agree, the B10 sees the big picture. But there is no immediate need to get up to 16. Fact is you could stay at 14 for years and ease into the relationship, such as by airing ND games.
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@ guy who needs to pick a name and go with it.
ND and their alumni will have to come and ask us very nicely if the “Big Ten will please let the Irish come and play.”
This will never happen.
If it’s so bad that the Big Ten doesn’t want us, we’ll go to schools that are more like us, i.e. small and private.
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The gamble with choosing the Maryland/Virginia combo over Notre Dame is that you could get more federal research dollars via the visibility of those two institutions than you could with Notre Dame. Plus you keep the all-AAU conference intact. I’m not necessarily sure I’d buy that argument; ND plus Maryland might achieve the same result, if you assume ND can deliver the NY metro market on its own. However, I guess you could make a case for it.
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If you had to draw up the most enticing pods or divisions for Texas, how would you do it?
In a pod setup, youd have 3 every-year matchups. I think the best you could do is Texas-TAM-Neb-Iow for that pod. (The reason I don’t have ND in that pod is that I have to think ND would rather have a Mich-MSU-OSU pod). Then you could still have 1 reserved rivalry game every year. Make that ND for Texas and you have a pretty nice schedule.
I know zeek has been pushing Miz for that pod, but I’m not sold on the Tigers garnering any interest from Tex.
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16 teams, no divisions, no CCG, 3 guarantee rivals, 6 games against other 12 teams (home & home/2 yrs on – 2 yrs off)
Cotton Bowl becomes 5th BCS Bowl, gives you 12 BCS slots including championship game and at least 1 if not 2 fewer automatic qualifiers. Raise cap on BCS teams for one conference from 2 to 3, 2 autobids to conferences that meet certain thresholds (16 teams & other parameters).
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Mixing it up, what if B10 employed something from the NFL, where weak teams play each other to promote parity. Could see some potential benefits: (1) Promotes the idea of parity, (2) you want the top schools playing each other as much as possible, more PSU v. Neb games are desirable. Could see some drawbacks: may have lack of fairnes, the weak teams want to play the top teams as well, so long as it is at home.
Just a gimmick that could be used somehow. But don’t know if it would work.
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What are the chances the Pac 10 takes Texas Tech if Texas and A&M go somewhere else? My guess is close to zero, but does anyone have an informed opinion? Also, do you think the Pac 10 has just extended one official offer (Colorado), or did they extend a conditional offer to the rest of the Big 12 south? Something like, if Texas comes, your invited. If Texas doesn’t come, you aren’t? If it isn’t conditional, Texas Tech should have said yes long ago before that invitation gets pulled.
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Let’s just put it this way.
If Tech or Oklahoma State is somehow invited to the Pac-10 without Texas/A&M firmly committed, Larry Scott will be fired.
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add
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That’s my guess too, but you never know. Then these rumors about Ok St. accepting Pac 10 have to be completely false. Here is my guess is what happened. Originally the Pac 10 makes a conditional invitation to the Big 12 South (minus Baylor plus Colorado) that was an all or nothing deal. When it came up that Baylor was making a play to be included, the Pac 10 responded. They probably figured that they were going to invite Colorado either way. By inviting Colorado first, it took away Baylor’s ability to put political pressure on Texas (hey what can we do, Colorado is already a member of the Pac 10).
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They are completely false, that TMZ report contradicts what Scott was saying on his telephone call even if it was ambiguous.
The Pac-10 is still in the lead for the Texas + 4 scenario (now that Colorado is already in), but we need to see it actually play out before the game is called.
And I see Texas/A&M getting invited to apply first to the Pac-10 when that does happen…
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better question is what if they take Kansas? really no further than Texas. or Missouri?
not suggesting either but the meme has been the the Pac 10 can’t get to 16 without Texas but it that true? could they assemble a viable alternative, not as good of course but viable, with some combination of schools like Colorado, Kansas, K State, Utah, Missouri, San Diego, BYU.
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The Pac 10 could get to 16 numerically without Texas, but they can’t get the kind of TV deal that would make a 16 team Pac 10 competitive with the SEC and Big 10 without Texas.
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Just posted on the Michigan Rivals’ board…apparently there is a big announcement coming within the next 2 hours. This from Chip Brown, Michigan reporters relaying it.
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Well the Big Ten presidents can vote whenever over the phone. I’m pretty sure this one is an easy go…
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Well, it could be a number of things:
1. Official Nebraska invitation.
2. The rumored invitations to ND, A&M, UT, and Missouri.
3. Another team to the Pac-10.
4. News from the A&M/UT meeting.
Who knows?
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Follow-up…the Michigan guy who relayed what he is hearing said that “something has changed in the last few minutes”.
Can probably rule out #1 then.
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Firing RR?
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Balas is hinting that that OrangeBloods writer will be saying something along the lines of Texas and A&M to the Big 10.
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Is two hours up yet?
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Interesting angle: if Baylor is not in the Pac-10 plans, they would probably prefer the A&M and Texas to the Big Ten scenario, which would leave them with at least Tech in whatever new conference they end up in.
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Good point on that. Everything is playing out in a way that may disrupt the Pac-16 yet; especially that Pac-10 teleconference…
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Dude, the Pac-16 was NEVER a real option. Once you stop thinking it is it’ll all be clear.
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I hope you’re right.
Stanford should have never let this thing leave the gate, but they had to with this USC mess threatening to hurt the Pac-10 contract negotiations. They still need to make a big splash…
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Oklahoma State disputes report on Pac-10 move
Colorado has jumped ship. But not Oklahoma State, yet.
The school issued a release to combat a report by TMZ Sports that had the Cowboys on the verge of accepting an invitation to the Pac-10.
“The report circulating about an immediate announcement today concerning Oklahoma State University and conference realignment is without merit.
“There are no announcements planned by Oklahoma State University. We remain committed to the Big 12 Conference. If there are additional defections, we will have to evaluate our options.”
http://www.kansascity.com/2010/06/10/2007205/oklahoma-state-disputes-report.html
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Texas Tech on realignment: “We are still monitoring the situation and will comment in more (later). Our potential options are positive.” 23 minutes ago via TweetDeck
Sounds like Texas Tech probably thinks the Pac-16 is still on track…
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Actually that’s the kind of statement put out when one is worried.
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I see what you’re getting at…
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i wouldn’t be completely shocked if the B12 survived right now. This thing is splintering in all different ways. Keep the Big 12 at 10, thereby making Colorado and Nebraska pay the penalties. Texas could move whenever they want…why do it now?
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it’s happening now, so that Texas can jump ship to another conference without all its little TX siblings. this gives them the freedom to go where they want and not look like the guys that gave up on the Big12.
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How could Missouri possibly stay in the B12 if it survived?
Balas clearly knows what this is, but is not hinting all that well as to which direction this thing is going.
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yea, schools without invites are screwed. aside from the money, should be a good humbling experience for presidents, chancellors, AD’s, alums and students at those schools that they are not worthy to be associated with those of the major conferences.
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Ya know, I wouldn’t rule out NE-TX-ND and stop at 14 just yet, with aTm to the SEC.
BTW, Texas Senator Dan Patrick (former sportscaster) just said on his radio show that just in his opinion, aTm ought to split from TX and go to the SEC. His comments the last few days have been generally to let TX and aTm choose their own fate, without completely ruling out legislative ‘discussion’ about considering the best interests of the state. FWIW.
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Sounds like a smart politician.
Also, just look at how well the Florida schools have done in their own conferences.
UF/FSU/Miami/USF/UCF have all found their own niches and grown. No politics involved in any of their conference affiliation choices…
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It is a good point. Who knows what Tech could be if it escaped from the shadows of UT/A&M. If it stayed in a surviving BXII (and assuming it retained a BCS bid), doesn’t it have a good chance of landing in a BCS bowl every year, or certainly more often than it does now?
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Your NE-TX-ND fantacy would cause the townd to close down and the city to elect Delany as Mayor. Or it should.
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I think thats a different Patrick.
http://www.danpatrick.org/
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I believe he was a former sportscaster at one point – at least he was a broadcaster. May have been sports director. But not to be confused with another sportscaster of the same name. Now he is just a very outspoken conservative politician.
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No, that’s the right Dan Patrick… probably not one you are familiar with.
Former sportscaster at Channel 11 in Houston. Once did a sportscast painted blue during the Bum Phillips days.
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No, Texas Senator Dan Patrick is a radio talk show host.
Dan Patrick
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Based on the Okla State reaction, I would think that the Pac-10 has issued the rough equivalent of “Save the Date” cards to the Texas 5. Most of the schools just shrugged and put them on the fridge with the other save-the-dates, but somebody at Okla State said, “AWESOME! WE’RE GOING TO THE WEDDING!!!”
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Post of the day for me.
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Of course Baylor was the friend who didn’t get that card so has to reach out on facebook to make sure they get invited.
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awesome.
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jd,
🙂
🙂
🙂
🙂
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This suspense is killing me. I hope it will last…
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WJ,
I hope you are joking!
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snozzberry.
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snozzberry eater.
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NBC Sports’ comment on the KC report:
http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/10/texas-am-petitioning-big-ten-for-an-invite-sooners-for-sec/
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just for the hell of it what if Oklahoma looking for a team to join the SEC with them to keep the SEC at an even number is what started the VaTech rumor?
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Hello….Missouri?…hey pal, if you aren’t doing anything I have two tickets to see the SEC. Wanna join me?
Doesn’t seem hard to find a date if this were true.
I prefer OU to the SEC…but this is pure cow paddies
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LMAO – who knows what to believe at this point
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Larry Scott on Colorado and OSU:
http://blog.oregonlive.com/pac10/2010/06/pac-10_conference_call_held_co.html
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Humena humena humnea!
“We’ve been looking at Colorado for quite some time. It was clear to us that for any scenario, Colorado is a great fit… Under any circumstances we are thrilled to have Colorado be part of our conference.
On future expansion plans for Pac-10:
We are evaluating different options and waiting to see what might develop nationally before we decide what we might do next.”
– Larry Scott
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Translation: We don’t want to look like we just got turned down in case we get dumped.
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pretty much….
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http://twitter.com/Dean_Myatt
Tech Official says Texas and A&M going to big 10 “not true” 1 minute ago via web
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Wishful thinking from Lubbock?
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agree, it seems like anytime an admin speaks in this process, they don’t like the direction its going.
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@NetRouter Texas and A&M are not going to the Big Ten. 21 minutes ago via web in reply to NetRouter
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After today’s UT/A&M/Tech confab, Tech apparently thinks that they have a pledge that we’ll all be BFFs. A&M appears to be more divided than ever. I’d say that the more time goes by without an announcement that A&M will join the other Big XII south schools in moving to the Pac 10, the greater the chance that A&M goes to the SEC. If an announcement isn’t forthcoming by the end of business tomorrow, I’d put my money on the SEC.
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I don’t know if you guys have seen this. This is not official but it’s an evaluation by Mr. SEC of possible expansion teams for the SEC.
http://www.mrsec.com/2010/06/sec-candidate-updates/
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A Texas A&M spokesman says no decisions were made or agreements reached in the meeting with UT officials about the Big 12 in Austin today. 33 minutes ago via web
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Seems as if Texas and A&M aren’t really on the same page…
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http://www.wacotrib.com/news/breakingnews/Colorado-joins-PAC-10-Conference.html
TEXAS, TEXAS A&M CAN’T FIND COMMON GROUND
Texas and Texas A&M officials met Thursday in Austin to discuss whether to bolt to the Pac-10.
However, the meeting ended with the teams in limbo.
According to a source, Texas President Bill Powers wants to go to the Pac-10, but Longhorns coach Mack Brown wants to stay in the Big 12. Texas A&M’s first choice is to stay in the Big 12; its second choice is to go to the Southeastern Conference, the source said….
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Mack can always retire in 2 years, I’m ready for Muschamp. And if true, just another reason to hate the Ags. Stick in the B12? Bleh! Seize the day…
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Waco Trib huh? That might not be a totally unbiased source. Just saying
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add – look at the posts below it talking about Waco’s economy taking a hit if Baylor lacks invite to the big boys party.
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Wow, the Big 12 may end up saved despite all of this…
Would Texas go to the Pac-10 if it meant A&M going east?
But Dodds, Brown, and A&M want to save the Big 12.
Maybe the Big 12 isn’t so dead after all?
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http://www.texas.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1093010
Looks like Chip Brown caught up finally.
There is no truth to reports that Texas and Texas A&M are considering the Big Ten. But A&M is still considering the SEC. less than a minute ago via TweetDeck
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New Rumor I’m starting here:
U of Texas and Texas A&M have received invitations to join the Big Sky conference. Montana needs some competition.
Baylor was NOT part of the invitation.
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Baylor never gets any love…
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OGDEN, UT (AP) Big Sky Conference Commissioner Doug Fullerton denied reports that the conference has extended preliminary invitations to join the Big Sky Conference to the University of Texas-Austin or Texas A&M University. Fullerton stated that with the addition of University of Northern Colorado to the Big Sky in 2006, the conference expanded to 9 teams, allowing them the flexibility to play a round-robin conference schedule and still have open dates for high-paying road games (so called “body bag games”) at Football Bowl Subdivision schools.
On whether the Big Sky will look to add more teams, Fullerton said “There are no assurances (that the Big Sky will continue to expand past nine teams.) No invitations have been issued.
We are evaluating different options and waiting to see what might develop nationally before we decide what we might do next. I can’t predict what kind of timing we might see here…Sometimes I’m having trouble predicting what is going to happen tomorrow. Adding more teams just splits the pie into smaller pieces”
Fullerton also mentioned that Max Media-Montana had picked up the September 12th Dixie State at Montana State game. This gives the Big Sky three televised games that date, with coverage of the Idaho State at Oklahoma game pending.
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Baylor got an invitation from the Ivy League, but rejected it on grounds that New England is too cold for outdoor sports like football.
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IF Texas and Texas A&M are headed for the Big Ten, I hope and pray this is national enough for Notre Dame to jump on-board. I think Big 10 + CIC + UNL + UT + TAMU gives you way too much to pass up.
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someone on NDNation just posted an ND plane was in Austin today for whatever that’s worth
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it seems the mods have deleted it. took about 4 minutes
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We can’t let people think anything is going on behind the scenes!
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If you are an ND alum (as your handle suggests), I’m guessing you will not be invited to the next alumni gathering. I thought all domers were for independence.
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He is not an alum. It is an “anonymous internet poster” game.
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Rich, please look past the fact that we have differing opinions on the viability of independence and potential conferences. I graduated from Notre Dame in 2007. Not every Domer is against the Big Ten. Are most fans and alumni? Yes. But not all are against the Big Ten.
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I suppose you could quiz him about stuff only a Domer would know…
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Most Domers are for independence. I am for independence to a point. I am not for independence if it means we will be relegated to Conference USA because we spent too much time ignoring the changing college football environment.
My preference is the Big Ten. Next: ACC. The Big Ten brings too much academic weight not to consider, and I would love to see my alma mater get stronger across all levels, undergrad and grad.
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Indeed. I have not heard of one ND fan who has argued that the Irish should voluntarily go the Big Ten, though I note that Holtz seemed to indicate today on ESPN that the Irish should join the big Ten.
Some have said they should go only if they are absolutely forced, but a majority of those same people do not foresee a scenario where they would be forced, no matter what, or, maybe more accurately, they do not foresee a scenario where ND should view itself as being possibly forced. I would point to NDNation on that latter point. Took a gander at that board the other day (at suggestion of ND fan on here). Some serious passion and conviction there, for sure. I wonder how closely the opinions there represent the opinions of alums/fans as a whole or the admin? No clue.
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The “no clue” was meant to convey that I have no clue what the answer is (i.e., whether NDNation represents general consensus of Domer fans), not that their opinions reflect that they have “no clue.”
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NDNation is the hardcore zealot board. They are generally critical of the ND Administration, NBC, the 7-4-1 schedule, and particularly anything that threatens the football program, Independence, or the Catholic Character. They were last most angry ranting was about giving an honorary doctorate to Pres. Obama at graduation and not making a bigger push to get a big name coach like Bob Stoops or something.
The current conference expansion paranoia on NDN involves Fr. Jenkins swapping our independence straight up for AAU membership. Sadly, this doesn’t sound far-fetched to me.
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I’m starting to sour on the CIC, personally. I’m praying for Fr. Jenkins.
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UT to B10. aTm to SEC. announce w/ an hour of eachother and guarantee the rivalry will continue. TX legislature wont kill funding for two schools for whom 85% of TX voters support. maybe the split is the cover afterall.
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And keep the Thanksgiving night game alive. B10 v. SEC on Thanksgiving night – a new way to market the rivalry.
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If the Big ten is now teetering from 1st to now 2nd and 3rd choice for Texas, should Delany just give them an ultimatum and be done with it? I mean the 12 – 18 month thing has gone to heck now anyway.
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Interesting idea.
I think Beebe needs to get to an ultimatum that might work for him. He could start tonight at McDonald’s: Three happy meals and an apple pie, OR ELSE!
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Pens,
at this point McDonald’s might say no way.
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Fine. Just the happy meals, OR ELSE!
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1. What power does Delaney have over Texas or Texas A&M or even Missouri? He can’t force them to do anything they both don’t want to do.
2. After what just happened with Nebraska, is issuing an ultimatum really a wise choice?
3. If the Big Ten stops with Nebraska, it’ll still be happy. It may dream about what could have happened with Texas and Notre Dame, but it’ll still be happy.
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Ultimatums and threats never work in the end. Delany just needs to be patient.
UT doesn’t have many choices left. SEC is a no go for them and always has been. The Pac 10 option is doable, but not great. The Big Ten has always been the best of the rest once the Big XII disappears……
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hawkeye,
agree with you on that, ultimatums only work to intimidate a weaker opponent. the problem is they just get weaker and add less value, or they build up resentment and then blow up. neither are good long term alternatives.
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So I’m going to get really crazy here, and by crazy, I myself don’t believe there’s a chance in hell this happens. But I figured I’d just throw it out there and see if anyone can answer it.
Let’s say you’re the Big 12 and you’re actually going to try to stay together. You lose Nebraska and Colorado and let’s just say Missouri for argument’s sake.
What kind of TV contract could you nab if you replace them with Army, Navy and Air Force? There’s a crapload of vets out there that watch college football. Do these guys care about their service teams? Or does a guy who grew up, say, an Iowa fan and served in the Army root for Iowa football while not giving a crap about Army football?
Maybe some vets can chime in here too.
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Doesn’t work unless the Merchant Marine Academy upgrades to D-1A.
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I think they root for them, but that is not the same as watching them. Not a vet, but a lot of fam was army, so I always pull for them. I typically only watch Army-Navy game and Navy-ND. The academies are fun to watch, but I don’t think they draw viewers. I always wondered why Air Force was in a conference but not Army/Navy. I would think they would all remain independents. Maybe someone can answer that for me. Probably just has something to do with the history of Army/Navy and location.
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NAVY – Annapolis, Maryland
ARMY-West Point, New York
Air Force- Colorado Springs , Colorado.
Navy and Army are extreme outliers. All are perpetual underdogs against all the recruits and money of big state schools.
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Perhaps if the new B12 evens the playing field by allowing the limited use of weaponry the games could get competitive.
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I doubt they are targeting the same recruits. And I’m willing to bet that the academies can compete with any program on money, specially as it relates to facilities. So I’m not sure they are really underdogs against the state schools.
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“Any” program? I will take the other side of that bet — even give you 10-1.
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Done. I’ll take the US government and their wealth against the great wealth of the mighty Lone Star state.
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The ‘wealth’ of the US Govt — LOL! The TBT has done pretty badly the past year, but I think it looks good going forward.
Anyway — you do realize this was a humor post by Robert, right?
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If you shed three teams, then your contract could be for 25% less than it currently is, and everyone is still making the same money. A 9 or 10 team Big XII with Texas and OU would still get a decent TV contract; not as good as the schools might do elsewhere, but more than they are getting right now. And, what they are getting right now is enough for Texas to lead the world in revenue. The Pac 16 deal really is nothing more than a TV joint venture (and divorce of the AZ schools from the Pac 8) than a real change in conferences for the Big XII schools. If the other Big XII schools (besides Colorado stay put), the Big XII could still team up with the Pac 10 on a TV contract, as was discussed a few weeks ago. The Big XII surviving is a possibility that should not be written off.
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twk,
look at the last few NC runs, that CC in the Big 12 has been golden, at 9 or 10 that goes away.
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I’m not a vet, but I have a lot of friends who are. From my experience, the guys who went to the service academies are fervant fans (like any other alum), but the rank n file are not all that passionate.
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New post on Northwestern board from Purple Book Cat:
“Wow. Update.
Big Ten targeting only Texas and ND as of this afternoon, pending the outcome of A&M’s status with the SEC.
Tomorrow will be a big, big day in college sports.”
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Ok, nobody is that good. JD would go down as the Kennesaw Mountain Landis of conference commissioners. Or would a “Pete Rozelle” reference work better? Frank probably doesn’t like KML.
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Good point. The White Sox had a (sort of) death penalty long before SMU.
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link?
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http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?SID=901&fid=57&style=2&tid=143839427&Page=5
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Well F*&$
I have a life…sorta…or used to have one.
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You mean refreshing FtTS over and over again isn’t a life?
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it is now
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have to be in court tomorrow morning and I haven’t done sh*t to prepare.
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Lots of lawyers on this blog. Not sure what that says.
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We’re good at pontificating a length even when we don’t know what the hell we’re talking about? 🙂
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HH,
🙂
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Is there anyone frequenting this blog that ISN’T a lawyer?
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Present, although I rarely comment and lack the pontificating-at-length gene, so maybe I don’t count.
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Are you all law school classmates of Frank?
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I’m not. I just started hanging out when I realized this place had more of a clue than anywhere else on this.
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I for one have no clue, but like the debate.
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Not a lawyer. Just hanging around because the level of expansion discussion is generally higher than the normal message board.
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I am not a lawyer tho most of my close friends are, and everybody in my family wanted me to be one.
I am not a blogger, and usually would never post, but the site has offered a home where folks express ideas and debate them. Not your ordinary blog as the conversation seems much better.
Maybe I should have been a lawyer.
😉
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Don’t ever say that again Duff. Trust me.
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CPA
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same as CTBucki
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I mean I’m not a friend of Frank’s IRL…
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“Big Ten targeting only Texas and ND as of this afternoon, pending the outcome of A&M’s status with the SEC.”
Agree — adding Nebraska achieves many goals: enhances the attractiveness of the BTN, allows for a CCG, adds another research-oriented institution and elevates the general academic reputation of the Big Ten. Why go to 13 or 14 at this time?
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Feeding the beast. More teams, more games, more inventory for the Big Ten Network.
For football on the Big Ten Network, which earns the most money….
@ 30 games with 11 teams
@ 50 games with 14 teams
@ 70 games with 16 teams
Get to 14 or 16, especially with strong schools (NU, ND, TEX) and everyone will make money hand over fist. Maybe as much as 3 times what they are currently getting.
I seriously doubt they stop at 12.
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hum,
NU, ND, UT vs IU in football….
Basketball better get back to a better level, and soon!!!!
🙂
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Purple Book Cat says he’s gonna write a book. Sad thing is that I’d buy it if ND is in *or* out.
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If you figure each addition of two “needs” one home run…
Texas w/ Mizzou
ND w/ Rutgers
?
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When this is all said and done, I think calling someone ¨Chip Brown¨ will be like calling them an epic tool.
Massive amounts of misdirection coming out of Austin, and I just hope this sees some resolution tomorrow.
Texas to the Big 10 and A&M to the SEC probably makes the most sense for all parties. The Big 10 finishes finishes with ND and it is an unbelievable success.
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add. can we mix a little douche in there, too?
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Wait…wait…playoffs now has already ended this and announced A&M and the SEC will never happen. His frantic posting continues.
Per A&M sources, all three options Pac16, B10 and SEC are available and being considered with no option being preferred.
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Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State and Texas Tech appear to be in lock step to the Pac-10 but will wait til next week to announce anything. 6 minutes ago via TweetDeck
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Yeah I think this one is done now.
Either A&M joins them on their route to the Pac-16, or it goes off alone and the SEC grabs Kansas or Missouri or VaTech to be #14.
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Who’s the 16th? Utah/Kansas?
Doesn’t sound like we are going to see any major announcements this week. Wait til next week I guess.
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This guy again. I highly doubt Texas takes on the Tech/OSU/OU problem without A&M at its side – too much sacrifice here to not involve A&M, as well.
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Aggies will fold.
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We’ll see. In my opinion, if Deloss doesn’t have them on board by tomorrow, A&M won’t be heading west. A tidal wave of opposition is building up amongst the old Ags and they will let the decision makers know how they feel if given the time to do so.
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Per Chip Brownnose: Utah or KS might replace aTm in the P16!
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SOOOO, according to the latest information:
Texas takes the B12 South to PACx or
Aggy heads east and Texas to B10 or
Texas to Pacx without aggy but with Kansas or Utah or
Somehow they save the B12 and rename it Longhorn Sports Conference or
Texas and aggy head to B10 or
Texas, ND, Vanderbilt and aggy head to the B-10 and form the South Pod, OU, OSU, Kansas, Tech and Utah join the Pac11 and Mizzou joins the Missouri Valley Conference.
Got it.
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Seems as if they’re just focusing on the Pac-10 offer for Texas + 5. If A&M wants to go to the SEC, they’ll be replaced.
Texas is trying to convince A&M to go west.
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http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?SID=901&fid=57&style=2&tid=143839427&Page=5
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Good thread, lots of new stuff:
http://texags.com/main/forum.reply.asp?topic_id=1636093&forum_id=5
May be awhile before we know for sure.
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Interesting information. I think Hopkins Horn is right though that A&M will end up going west with Texas and co.
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This explains why TT and Baylor were not invited to the UT/aTm meeting this morning. The Ags and Horns were given a videoconference presentation from the SEC outlining their offer.
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like a Saban recruiting visit. suprised the SEC didn’t send cheerleaders in a limo.
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Are you suggesting that Texas could be swayed by the hotness of another school’s cheerleaders?
You have a lot to learn about Texas, my friend. 🙂
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Most Ags believe that when a Texas student does to a physics class, they teach “spin”. Ditto for Chemistry. Well, ditto for every class they take. In other words, no university can create spin to their benefit quite like UT. Don’t like it but have to admire it. Especially now with Mouthpiece Brown doing the talking.
Just for fun, I wnet to the Aggie subscription and copied some comments to share with the board. LOL.
Quotes………
Posted: Today 3:53 PM
Realignment Update (Thursday 3:30 PM)
This is very early and sketchy feedback from the meeting and I’m still getting details…
What I have confirmed with two sources is that during the A&M-Texas metings that the SEC videoconferenced in and made a presentation to both schools. The SEC focused on allowing A&M and Texas to form their own networks and apparently that perked up the Horn reps and they expressed interest.
I would now say that the SEC is a possibility for Texas, but like us they will probably go to the Big 10 and elsewhere picking up offers and listening to proposals and then make the best decision for them.
If I were the Pac-10, I’d be nervous right about now.
Hop
I see that I’ve become a topic over on O-Bloods as I guess some Horns are stealth subscribers.
What I find humorous is that there are 2-3 posters that actually are looking at this analytically and suggesting that A&M/Texas/OU combinaion to the SEC or Big Ten is a much better deal and acknowledgeing that if Texas doesn’t watch out, they could be “stuck” in a bad Pac-10 deal. Posters start roasting this guy and he says that he has no idea how they are capable of making enough money to pay their |$9.95/month sub.
I agree…regardless of who does what. If any college sports fans thinks that a Pac-16 with Tech, OSU, OU, CU and Texas is more lucrative than an SEC or Big 10 with A&M/Texas is seriously stupid.
Hop
DougFu wrote:
Hop wrote:
SEC 50%
PAC 40%
B-10 10%
That was from about an hour and a half ago…
After this latest info, has that changed any?
I didn’t get enough specifics from the meeting to suggest who will do what…but just my own brain thinking about it tells me:
SEC 60%
B-10 20%
Pac 20%
Hop
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@Wes:
(And keeping in mind I’m not attacking you, you’re only cutting-and-pasting what’s being reported)
It reads as though the SEC presented the idea of UT having its own network, and UT “perked up” with interest as though UT hadn’t thought of the idea before?
I’m not buying that.
suggesting that A&M/Texas/OU combinaion to the SEC or Big Ten is a much better deal and acknowledgeing that if Texas doesn’t watch out
When they discuss this, do they address the issues that (1) Texas to the SEC is considered a non-starter on academic grounds, and (2) OU to the Big 10 is a similar non-starter?
If they’re arguing purely in athletics terms, they may very well be right, but they’re merely arguing hypotheticals.
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Hopkins, this has been reported by others. Including Texas Senator Dan Patrick and alluded to by Loki above. From the Aggie site, the argument for the SEC is purely in financial terms on the part of the Aggies and this was just confirmed on Channel 11 out of Houston. I have read your Ketche’s rant of Defcon 2.5 and Hop statement of if Texas wants the Pac 16, just go. We could both go to the Big Ten and make a substantial amount of money and you could have your own network and make even more money in the SEC, so why not. Could it be that Texas has painted themsleves into a corner by their decades long statements of put down of the SEC’s educational statndards and you can’t back off now. So that begs the question of why not the Big 10. It that a control issue for Texas?
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@Wes
Loved this line and, after watching this process from afar, agree completely:
¨Most Ags believe that when a Texas student does to a physics class, they teach “spin”. Ditto for Chemistry. Well, ditto for every class they take. In other words, no university can create spin to their benefit quite like UT. Don’t like it but have to admire it. Especially now with Mouthpiece Brown doing the talking.¨
Don´t buy anything coming out of Austin these days. Remember the Missouri ¨leaks¨ from a couple months ago? In baseball terminology, they were somewhere around rookie ball. What we´re dealing with now is the big leagues.
Right now, this is about three things: leverage, leverage, leverage.
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Can anyone track down that reporter from the Missouri radio station to ask him if he still stands by his reporting?
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Him and Kent Brockman were right on the money.
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Actually, Keitzman was confronted about it today:
KK’s guest Robert Allen from OSU talking about how there was “a report out of KC that nebraska and missouri had invites that now is obviously wrong.” Not knowing it was Kietz that reported it. Saying there was egg on their face now.
KK stuttering “I’ll stand by that story”
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Awesome.
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I usually really like Keitzman, but that story got debunked the next day, and he refuses to retract. Bad form by a normally good sports radio guy
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@Chris02M Pac-16 won’t happen if this occurs. Texas is playing PR game like no one else.
less than 20 seconds ago via TweetDeck in reply to Chris02M
RT @diorex: @frankthetank111 Gene Stallings on Dallas ESPN radio. A&M not necessarily stapled to Texas. Not excited about Pac 16.
1 minute ago via TweetDeck
Texas A&M wants SEC RT @gkketch: Uh oh, the latest from @ChipBrownOB – UT/A&M going to War? http://tinyurl.com/28zx7t4
12 minutes ago via TweetDeck
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oops – just meant to put the one up there.
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Chip is really good at taking dictation from Deloss. I love the veiled threat about not playing. Smacks of desparation to me. Hope the Horns enjoy taking their posse along to the Pac 10.
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Pullman and Tuscon are just stunning this time of year.
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OH NOOOOOOSSSSSSSS!
A&M wants out…where oh where can we find another team to go to the pac-10?
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OK, back to the real world. 🙂
There’s a rumor floating out there that the Pac 16 will not have a championship game and will seek automatic BCS bids for each divisional winner.
Am I off my rocker for insisting that there’s no f’in’ way that the Big 10, SEC and ACC would ever agree to this? (Not talking to you, Big East. No one cares what you think.)
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None of the others will agree until they each get to 16…
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I don’t think this will actually happen -meaning no CCG. I believe it was a coach (which?) that said the Pac doesn’t belive in a CCG and that the B12 teams don’t even like a CCG.
My guess is that when the AD’s and other university decision makers find out that a CCG w/ a pretty stacked P16 can bring in $20M – they will find a way to “believe” in it regardless of if the coaches “don’t even like it.”
The one thing I can see is them lobbying for the 2 autos w/ an increase of the conference max to 3. B10 and SEC will be on board with that because they will be right behind them in jumping to 16….
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I’m not sold on CCGs either. What is more valuable? One CCG or a whole slate of games? Meaning why not just give every school another game to play? I think it is a legitimate question. If the B10 had wanted a CCG, they could have had one by now. I know the NCAA says there must be 12 schools, but the B10 could have gotten a petition/exemption through. I’m just not as sure they are a valuable as people assume they must be.
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SH – for any conference to have 12 teams and not have a conference championship game makes the regular season an exhibition season. All this “won or shared conference championship” stuff is crap. Depending on how you set up a 12 to 16 team league, you could have 4 or more conference champions. There’s no resolution in that.
Settle it on the field.
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I can see lobbying to get rid of the max of 2 teams in the BCS being agreeable to other conferences.
And there HAS to be a CCG. We’ve seen how often the Big 10 has seemed to have two teams competing for the title without having a chance to settle it on the field.
USC will avoid Texas and OU every other year, on average.
No CCG for a 16-team conference = recipe for disaster.
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Disagree…in a 16-school conference, you play a nine-game season…give each school three protected rivalries and with the remaining 12 schools you rotate six on/six off every two years (home/away and then home/away). Then you don’t go more than two years without playing everyone (one of the great values of the Big Ten) and you keep three standing rivalries intact. You also have a possibility of sending your two best teams to the national championship, rather than undermine one of them in a conference championship game. And if Delany gets his way, you could send a 3rd team to the Rose Bowl. It’s genius. Aaaaand you avoid the pitfalls of divisions and this garbage about pods.
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Joe – I can say from personal experience that if the SEC doesn’t have a conference championship game, LSU doesn’t play for and win 2 BCS NCGs.
In a big (12+) conference, not playing a championship game is for COWARDS.
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alan,
for better or worse I agree here. If the ACC, Big 12, and SEC have to play the extra game for a shot at a NC. How could a Pac 16 or Big 16 be at 16 teams and expect not to have them meet in the end for a battle for dominance. Seems weak for football, a game of toughness.
what is the saying “survive and advance”.
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I agree with Zeek. Once the Big Ten and SEC hit 16 all bets are off, but nothing will happen at the moment. I think we’ll see an expanded MWC get its AQ before that happens.
I do think should happen contingent upon adding the Cotton Bowl and maybe Capital One (CItrus) Bowl to the BCS. That way they can accommodate 3 more BCS bids.
Also, I think the 16 team conferences should be required to have a conference championship game. The last thing we need is the National Championship being played between two teams in the same conference.
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As expected, TX is going to use the SEC as leverage against the P16 and B16. The SEC’s offer to allow the LSN is the key. With aTm (probably out of the picture) there’s a nice 2-slot waiting for TX and ND. ND probably wants a special TV or channel concession along with TX. Not necessarily a deal breaker, because another B10+ AD said that finding revenue streams for individual conference schools to control was a good idea. I can see room for compromise.
So I wouldn’t get in a hurry, we’ve got a multi-party blinking contest.
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I’m with Hopkins Horn on this, I don’t really see a Big Ten offer on the table that Texas or A&M is really considering right now.
Texas probably has issues with distance if A&M isn’t there, and A&M would prefer the SEC over the Big Ten.
1) Texas and A&M + 3 (Tech/OU/OSU) go to the Pac-10.
50% odds.
2) Texas + 4 (Tech/OU/OSU/Kansas) go to the Pac-10. A&M goes to the SEC.
35% odds.
3) All of them stay in the Big 12 (seems as if only Powers opposes this; Dodds/Brown/A&M want it.
10% odds.
4) Texas goes to the Big Ten, A&M to the SEC.
4.99% odds.
5) Texas and A&M to the SEC.
0.01% odds.
Until something changes, I don’t see the Big Ten as the compromise for Texas/A&M. Texas will insist on the Pac-10 until it gets its way. Then it will throw A&M to the SEC and replace it. I see no Big Ten compromise that brings both as of now…
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UT and ag to Big 10 may be unlikely, but not less likely than both to SEC. Give them at least 1% to Big 10. Please.
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The thing is, if A&M comes around to Texas’ view, why wouldn’t Texas just get them both over to the Pac-10?
Otherwise, A&M will refuse. I just don’t see this as something where there is compromise to be made.
It’s like with Nebraska being given a deadline to commit to the Big 12.
I don’t see conference choices as being open to compromise in the sense that both would turn away from preferred paths for a path neither really prefers.
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“The thing is, if A&M comes around to Texas’ view, why wouldn’t Texas just get them both over to the Pac-10?”
Less travel for the furthest schools. Makes more money and better for academics. No real need for A&M to play the Oklahoma schools.
We’ll just have to see what happens.
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Zeek,
I don´t buy talk about probabilities at this point. There´s massive amounts of misdirection coming out of Texas, but I believe that´s a sign UT and A&M already know how this is going to end up – or at least how they want this to end up.
Any misdirection is being used as a way to leverage greater concessions out of their target conference. The question then becomes where is most of this ¨misdirection¨ pointing? At least in UT´s case, it seems like that´s toward the Pac 10. We´ll have to wait and see, but I take this as a sign that UT´s on its way to the Big 10.
Need more proof? This Chip Brown character repeatedly states that the Big 10 and UT have not been in contact. Well, that is obviously false. So 1) either he is distorting what he hears from his sources or 2) he is only being fed half the story. If it´s #2, you have to ask why . . .
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I also think the ties we´ve seen between UT and ND are too strong at this point to just be ignored.
You also have to like the details that have come out of the few UT to the Big 10 rumors. Maybe I´m wrong on this, but the ¨details¨ about a P16 seem to be much more along the line of conjecture, rather than leaks.
The fact that the Pac 10 commissioner´s comments today have been very guarded also suggests to me that he realized he´s being used by Texas.
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I think there’s ties between ND and Texas in terms of the decision making process, and there’s definitely the chance that if A&M goes to the SEC that Texas jumps to the Big Ten.
I just don’t think it’s that likely.
The Texas/ND/Nebraska strategy seems to be the most in play right now as a way of not going to 16/pods if ND doesn’t want a 16 team conference, but getting ND to sign onto the Big Ten seems like a heroic lift at this point.
I just don’t think the Big Ten can deliver that package until the clouds of 4×16 superconferences is upon us.
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Odds are really low for Texas to the Big Ten, and always have been, a map will tell you that.
but I blame title 9. If UT didn’t have to fly all those women around…ya thats it…
Like Homer Simpson once said.
Girls should stick to Girls sports.
like hot oil wrestling, foxy boxing and such, and such.
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Oh Lisa, it doesn’t mean anything, like “rama-lama-ding-dong” or “give peace a chance.”
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That may be true, but let’s stipulate that both schools could get more $ from the B10. Why wouldn’t they both want to go there? Is it because A&M just has zero interest? A&M wants to escape from under the shadow of UT? UT can control more of its own money in Pac 16? UT does not like the distance (as you mentioned)? Or a combination.
If I’m a UT supporter, I am very skeptical of a P16 combo, especially one without A&M.
1. Inherent stability question – 3rd conference in 20 years.
2. Always saddled with Tech.
3. As of now, basically own the Texas recruiting market. Would you not be ceding a lot to A&M. Flip side, now have better access to CA market. I guess this is another way of saying, as big brother don’t you want to do everything to prevent little bro from getting bigger than you?
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Yeah, I definitely think there’s somewhat of a concern on the Texas side as to letting the SEC recruiting machine into Texas.
One thing though, Texas doesn’t really care for recruiting outside of its state because it doesn’t have to; like 90%+ come from Texas. When you have that many 3/4/5 star recruits coming from a single state, you don’t even have to get a big % of them to fill the team, and Texas will always get them as it separates itself from the pack in terms of riches.
We’ll see what happens but at this point, I think Texas and A&M are about to go all in on each other and whoever blinks, will either just follow the other in the case of A&M, or if Texas imposes a deadline, they’ll just move on.
Do I think Texas going to the Pac-10 with Tech/OU/OSU/Kansas is a worse outcome than coming to the Big Ten with ND? Sure. But we have to wonder if ND is really on the table for this…
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@duffman, you asked earlier today how I saw this playing out from a SEC point of view. I’ve had a little more time to think about it and here is how I see one set of scenerios predicated on aTm going to the SEC.
I definitely think that Mike Slive is working with Gene Stallings (and probably has for a little while now, possibly with a Bama go between) to sway the powers that be within aTm to come to the SEC if and when the Big 12 explodes (although if he has, they have kept this under wraps better than a CIA operation). I believe (and I think that the recent rumors kind of prove this out) that Coach Stallings has probably been effective enough to create a movement with the powers that be at aTm to go to the SEC. Now whether or not that movement has enough power behind it is the million dollar question.
If Coach Stalling succeeds in convincing enough people to go to the SEC, then the SEC’s moves all depend on what UT does. While it appears the SEC may have made one last ditch effort to get UT by offering them their own tv network, I still seriously doubt UT goes to the SEC.
If UT goes to the Big 10, I think OU is a slam dunk to come to the SEC since they won’t be able to follow them and they would still get to play aTm in Texas (and may still be able to salvage an out of conference game with UT). Now if the SEC wants to go to 16, they may decide to try for the STL and/or KC markets and grab Mizzou and/or Kansas. If prefer to go east, then VT, FSU, Clemson, are options. They would probably try for UNC, but I see them coming about as likely as UT coming.
If UT goes to the Pac 10, then I think that OU is off the table and the SEC focuses on the STL/KC markets and goes after Mizzou and/or Kansas. Depending on whether or not they take one or both of those schools, they supplement with one or two from the east.
Again, this is all predicated on aTm going to the SEC and I truely believe Coach Stallings is on the front lines of this effort. If we don’t get aTm, then we’ll try for OU if the UT and aTm go to the Big 10 and we’ll focus east if they go to the Pac 10. But if the SEC doesn’t get aTm, I think there will be a lot of people within the SEC that will question whether or not expansion will even be worth it. This is all just my honest opinion
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Do you think the SEC would go east so as not to break up rivalries?
Isn’t it much easier to install A&M in the SEC West and VaTech or FSU in the East?
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By breaking up rivalries, are you talking about UT vs aTm and OU? If so, then I don’t think the SEC gives a crap about whether or not they break up those rivalries. That decision would be aTm’s decision to make. I think the SEC only goes east if it goes to 16 or if aTm and OU decide to follow UT.
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Zeek,
You may be right about the SEC.
Here´s a scenario though: Texas heads to the Big 10. CU, Utah, KU and MU all leave for the Pac 10. A&M and VaTech are then sent packing to the SEC.
Where does that leave Oklahoma? That is an awfully big program to be left without a home, but I´m just not sure where they could go.
Big 10? No
Pac 10? Probably not – academics, demographics
SEC? It´s probably OU´s best option and best fit, but can the SEC support 16 teams? Would we be talking about diminishing returns at that point?
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If you are talking about breaking up rivalries within the SEC, then I definitely don’t see the SEC doing that (at least the major ones anyways). The rivalries are what makes the SEC special. If the SEC added aTm and OU in the west, Then I think that they would probably move Bama and AU to the east and Vandy to the west. This would keep all of the major rivalries intact.
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zeek – that’s what I said a few nights ago. SEC takes A&M and FSU and shuts down expansion. That way Auburn & Alabama stay together, and UTn, Vandy & UK stay together. CBS/ESPN probably like this combo the best.
Scheduling options:
#1 – Stay at 8 conference games and eliminate the permanent out-of-division rivalry game. Bama/UTn and UGA/Auburn fans wouldn’t like this option. Ole Miss/Vandy, UK/Miss St, and Arky/USCe fans could probably care less. LSU/UF fans would probably be relieved.
#2 – Play 9 conference games and keep the out-of-division rivalry game. Coaches would not like this option.
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Ut v. Bama could be an issue in knoxvegas.
But i’m sure something could be worked out. I have been saying for sometime I believe Silve wants something in TX, if he has to expand. I agree SEC expansion and match-ups are important, but making headrows into Tex IMO is more important to the commissioner.
A&M and FSU would do both.
Hey Alan do you think The SEC will stay at 14 if Pac and Big go to 16? it would seem they would have to expand further. As would the ACC.
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willarm1 -that’s the $25-30mm question. I would bet that CBS/ESPN would pony up the money for an A&M/FSU combo. I don’t know what 16 team combo for the SEC, that doesn’t include UTx, gets the SEC $50-60mm per year from the TV networks.
If #15 & #16 were VA Tech and OU? Don’t know but don’t think so. The current SEC may take a little haircut on their SEC checks for the sake of expansion, but they aren’t getting their heads shaved over it.
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No knowledge or inside information with this but a few thoughts….
An Aggie is working for me and HATES the idea of the Big Ten. HATES the idea of playing northern schools. would much rather play LSU, Arkansas, and the rest of the SEC. Really wants to continue a Texas rivalry, but if Texas wants to go with ‘a bunch of northern schools’ F’em.
Texas thinks that Illinois is basically Canada and if you cross a river (Red or Rio Grande) you are leaving the country.
While Austin is a reported outpost, A&M does not seem to be as receptive to the Big Ten culture.
My thoughts as of now (subject to change)
Big Ten adds Nebraska, Texas, Notre Dame, Rutgers, and Pitt / Syracuse
SEC adds Texas A&M and Oklahoma
Pac Ten adds Colorado and Utah….. maybe OSU & Kansas
Big 12 reminants try to reform with Texas Tech, Iowa State, Kansas State, Missouri, and maybe Kansas & Oklahoma State…… adding TCU, BYU, Colorado State, others?
At least pieces are moving now! Get on board before you get left off.
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Patrick,
Agree with most of what you wrote.
Keeping in mind the revenue numbers you ran, do you still think the Big 10 would or should go to 16, even if you already have NU, ND and UT? If so, I think Maryland seems more likely than Pitt or Syracuse.
As for the Pac 10, if they go to 14, I´d imagine it would be with Kansas and Missouri, as opposed to KU and OSU.
Not sure we have much of a beat on Slive and the SEC yet. I do think OU and A&M probably make the most sense, but I have no idea whether they have the entice or support anything more.
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Honestly, I have no idea if they will go to 16. From what I ran before, I think they SHOULD go to 16 to maximize revenue opportunities.
Politically though, it may be to hard.
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Patrick,
I like the first 4 you have for the Big Ten. I would put Maryland in the 5th spot.
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Have a long time friend who works in Arizona State athletic office. He’s not a big honcho or anything but like most office’s you hear stuff. Talked to him earlier today.Tells he me that the big 12 south five deal is tenuous at best. Seems some of academic people, particularly at Cal and Stanford have concerns about the academic situation with the Oklahoma schools. Take it for what its worth.
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Can’t imagine they’d be too happy with Texas Tech and Oklahoma State WITHOUT Texas or Texas A&M.
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Uhhh Ohhhh.
I was looking at the post times. I sure hope that it wasn’t my post that brought down WordPress.
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@Patrick am not picturing Texas going to the Big Ten by itself. Yes there is big money there but having schools within a few hundred miles in the same conference does count for something. The PAC10 seems willing to provide that while the Big Ten won’t. Also, Oklahoma’s public pronouncements (to my astonishment) are saying they’re going to stick with Texas, which generally sounds credible. The PAC10 really needs to make their push to sixteen now, there will NEVER be a better time to do it. They don’t have time to wait for UNLV, Idaho, Wyoming and New Mexico to develop into credible candidates.
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I agree Ron that the Pac must attack right now!
I think UT wants to be part of CIC and that is a Big positive for them. I also have a feeling that Texas and Notre Dame have been talking in the background and may go together.
OU will do what it sees as best for OU, regardless of Texas. They may get tied to OSU, and they aren’t going to the Big Ten so an early jump at the SEC with A&M may be a strong move for them.
The faster everything goes down, the more it favors the PAC 10.
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Well, that sucked.
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That was horrible. Did anything happen? Are you there God?
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Yes, what do you need?
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Did the servers crash? That was not cool, you have no idea how bad I was jonesin’ for this site to come back up!
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This site has become like crack.
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B & S
you can beat a crack addiction
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Frank,
Are you hearing the same rumblings Purple Cat Book is hearing?
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Probably could have been the best thing that could have happened to us. Sadly we are back on line.
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I see everyone hit refresh at the same time, haha.
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Good thing the basketball game was on, I almost did something productive.
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Frank – did you break the WordPress?
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If you’re interested, Mr. SEC has a pretty good synopsis of today’s events from a SEC perspective.
Good reading material to satisfy your expansion fix during the next crash.
http://www.mrsec.com/
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Well, depending on what shakes out now, we may all be on the same page in a few weeks if the SEC ends up going after VaTech and the Big Ten wants to move in on Maryland/Va. That would be interesting to say the least.
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thought the line about the pac 10 getting two automatic bids forcing Notre Dame’s hand was interesting, as far as leverage goes.
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You have been warned! Texas and aTm must go to the Big 10!
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where are my keys?
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Anyone else actually get anything done during the break?
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I ate dinner, so I have no idea what was going on here…
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I opened up the word doc into which i will at some point write a brief.
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eh, the judge won’t read it anyways.
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I’m feeling some ctrl-c, ctrl v ccming up.
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You mean you didn’t get that brief done today during work hours? What were you doing?
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What does the Kansas City CBS affiliate have to say about WordPress server issues? Surely they have the inside scoop.
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Great article from the Dallas Morning News interviewing Frank Boyles, who was the Athletic Director at Arkansas that directed their move to the SEC a year before the Southwest Conference collapsed.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/colleges/topstories/stories/061110dnsposherrington.11dd999.html
Broyles is now retired, you can pretty much tell he’s smiling from ear-to-ear about his role in getting Arkansas into their current safe position re conference realignment. As well he should…
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I liked the part about the clash of cultures of the old Big 8 schools with Texas.
Delany has made comments similar about the need of having the same values and outlook.
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Frank Boyles said:
“I think ND athletic director Jack Swarbrick knows it’s in the school’s best interest to join the Big Ten. And if the Big East begins to crumble, I think he has his legitimate reason to join a conference.”
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I laugh every time I see something like this. Notre Dame is already in a conference. It’s the Big East. They’re being allowed to exempt football. I can’t imagine allowing myself to be disrespected the way the Big East does in that relationship.
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Word of warning to those posters here that advocate for a national BT capturing new markets:
“College football is the loser,” Broyles said. “Where are the rivalries and the neighbors that make college athletics so great? What are they doing for their fans?
“When you spread it out like that, you might as well be pro teams.”
The regional rivalries are the mothers milk of CF. Fuck the pure $ & TV’s.
Mega expansion at your peril, dont kill the goldn goose.
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Great point, except I consider the golden goose to be the research and other dollars that allow Big Ten universities to be superior institutions, not just the winner of football games.
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no one buys a ticket to watch a kid take a test
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Hmmm, the site was down while I was at a Boy Scout meeting?
I have powers!!!
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Frank,
way to go you took down the server!
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Take a look at this website of the top corn producing states.
Click to access 3uscornprod.pdf
With the addition of Nebraska, Big Ten country now has the top six corn producing states. If the Big Ten picks up South Dakota, Kansas, and Missouri, they control the Top 10. This leaves 1 more spot for the super conference–#12 Texas.
Think corn is irrelevant? Then why did the Pac 10 just pick up #13 Colorado?
And you thought it was about TV revenue.
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Let me interject some Texas politics into all this as I just finished messaging some friends and talking to family in Waco.
Right now (R) Gov. Rick Perry will be facing off against popular Houston Mayor (D) Bill White in November. White’s the first democratic fielded candidate that has a legitimate chance of winning the governorship since Ann Richards and Mark White. Now why is this important? Sources are telling me Perry hasn’t lifted a finger to help Baylor and has instead hurt their efforts.
Central Texas and Waco will be one of the battle grounds in this next gubernatorial election. Chet Edwards, a democrat, has held the US Rep seat their for a number of years (same year Richards won the governorship) and was being spoken of as a replacement for Dennis Hastert before Nancy Pelosi. That said, the area generally vote republican for state seats including governor.
Word is starting to spread inside Central Texas and the Baylor nation that Perry isn’t doing anything to help. While many will poo-poo Baylor as a school that doesn’t bring anything to the table…I will refer to something I said before…Baptist are REALLY good at politics. If this doesn’t get decided before this weekend, come Sunday the topic of conversation around the state’s Baptist churches will be Baylor, which pipeline a number of kids and $ to the school
If Perry starts feeling heat he may have to find Baylor a home otherwise he could stand losing a sizable number of votes in an already what will be a close race come November.
This just got REAL interesting.
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We are knee deep in it now. I got news for you. White has no chance of beating Perry. If you think those Baptist are going to vote White over Perry, you don’t know the Baptist. Frankly, I don’t think this (or any) gubatorial election is going to hinge on conference expansion. Poltical favors may be asked and may be given, but it isn’t going to have an outcome on election night.
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Really?
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2010/03/rick-perry-bill-white-texas-governor.html
6 points this early for a state where a Republican should be blowing it out by double digits. I don’t think so.
A Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of likely November voters finds Perry leading White by 6 points, 49%-43%. Back in January, when White recalibrated his political ambitions from a Senate seat to a high-backed chair in Austin, Perry led him by 10 points in a hypothetical matchup.
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That isn’t exactly true “that a Republican should be blowing it out by double digits.” Perry is already the longest serving govenor in state history and will in all liklihood continue that. As a long-term incumbent, a lot of people are ready to see him lead. But I don’t think White will get the job done. But relating that to colleges and football – Perry knows all the power players better than anyone. If A&M really wanted to escape UT’s shadows, I’m sure Perry could help grease the political wheels. But I honestly don’t think he is going to get too much involved in this. May pay lip service, to tradition and keeping the schools toegether. But I don’t think this is something he will use to expend political capital or accumulate political capital for.
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Perry has already said he is taking a hands-off approach.
He may not burn any political capital for it, but that doesn’t mean it won’t be held against him.
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Yeah Baylor can’t be too happy about Perry’s choice of, ahem, “lifestyle”.
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double-add, really, Perry is cruising.
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Was this meant as a double entendre?
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Wow, I guess they don’t understand that none of the other BCS conferences want Baylor. This might be what it takes to preserve the Big XII since Perry cannot make another conference take Baylor, but he can force Texas to stay in the Big XII. Or, is Perry actually helpless and just going to lose now?
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I’m not saying its possible, but if aTm wants to go to the SEC my guess is they will have to take Baylor with him. If TTech, UT, and aTm go to the Pac-10, its easier to say they don’t want Baylor, but Baylor will make it very uncomfortable for those leaving.
Would the SEC take aTm if they had to take Baylor…I have no idea. They would probably have serious second thoughts.
As I have said from the beginning the easiest politically for UT and aTm is to have a place for all four schools in a BCS conference. Any one gets left behind whether its Tech or Baylor its going to create problems.
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What was that thing I read about separation of Church and State?
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Doesn’t necessarily apply in Texas: [url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35839979/ns/us_news-education/[/url]
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That’s only valid for Union states. lol.
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Sorry, but I don’t see it being any more right to force Texas to stay by public schools than private ones. Religion only plays a role to the extent Baylor can mobilize support through churches.
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Complete waste of bandwidth. Perry was 12 points down to Hutchinson and mopped the floor with her. He hasn’t even lifted a figner against White (just shot a coyote) and he’s already gaining in the polls. One ad showing White’s membership in an anti-gun group (so, they were against illegal guns–won’t matter in Texas) will be all Perry has to do.
Perry is staying out of it. His critics have accused him of meddling in A&M’s affairs. Now they WANT him to meddle. It’s all BS.
Chet Edwards is a fellow Aggie, but he’s a complete snake in the grass who is probably going to get what’s coming to him this time around.
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Just relaying what I have heard from family members who spent a great deal of time in Central Texas politics.
White may (probably) go down and hard, but he is the first credible threat Perry has faced. Someone with name recognition, money, and backing both in and out of state.
Edwards may be as slick as that oil in the Gulf, but he has held a seat for 20 years in the House even after the last redistricting into a pre-dominant Republican area so while I hold no party affiliation myself, I would bet Edwards.
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I think one of the most interesting rumors from today was about Mark Cuban´s role in bringing UT to the Big 10.
The idea of him sponsoring an annual UT-IU basketball series played in Conseco and the AA Center would be great to watch.
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source?
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This blog went from front runner to catch up in a hurry. In reality SEC is biggest dog in football/TV world, you just try to contain the biggest dog and work around it. Big 10 has “out-organic growthed” it and everyone else with the CIC/BTN with intelligence and what really matters for the long-haul. That still doesn’t mean you stop and challenge the biggest dog to a street fight. East to to the Atlantic, you can’t stop once it starts.
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Hot Air Alert!
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Perry vows hands-off approach to Big 12 chaos
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D9G8PLR81.html
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“All Texas conference” what a load.
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RU’s next
Sorry non believers – the Knights are coming
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Did you see this? Talk about a pipe dream…
http://www.mrsec.com/
Meanwhile, Kirk Bohls of The Austin American-Statesman claims that a “well placed Southeastern Conference figure” told him that Slive has a vision for expansion that no one else has discussed.
“I think Mike Slive’s dream is to add Texas, Texas A&M, North Carolina and Duke. That would add the state of Texas as well as the Charlotte and Raleigh markets.”
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I think Kirk Bohls just discredited anything he could possibly say about conference realignment.
I mean suggesting a pipedream combo is one thing, but Duke? What?
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The really fascinating thing here is, as far as the Big Ten is concerned, the deal is the deal. There’s not much horse trading that’s possible. It really seems like UT wants to get in on the action but they’re having to do this elaborate dance to get there. Otherwise, they’re being a helluva prima donna about this without a lot to gain. Nothing for us to do but sit back and see whether they prove themselves a good fit for the type of partnership we offer or if they’ll continue their conference busting ways with someone else.
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Do you think it is possible all of the rumors and all the playing of one conference off of one another is for one thing: Texas wants its’ own TV network (for its’ out of conference games) AND get a piece of the BigTen Network pie (in conference)? Is it possilbe Texas wants it both ways, and Notre Dame wants it too? That would be the ultimate power play going on right now. If you are Jim Delaney, do you give it to them? At stake: these two schools going to a different conferences and the BigTen definitively, even in a best case senario, becoming the number 3 or even 4 conference in the country. It would be wealthy, but a solid notch below a PAC16 with Texas, an expanded SEC with Texas A&M, and Notre Dame remaining independent while playing Texas and perhaps even avoiding BigTen schools. I know this may sound crazy, but many have been trying to follow all the rumours and tangled story lines that seem to change every five minutes; this is, I think, the only conclusion. So, even hypothetically, if you were Jim Delaney, do you give it to them?
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No. Patience will win out. We will prove that we can have this exactly as we want accordingly to our methods and principles. Delany et al have allegedly been orchestrating this for years. Quick story: man goes into a Porsche story and overhears a conversation with another potential customer. The other guy goes on and on about how bad he wants the Porsche but keeps haggling over wanting some $300 freebie. The dealer simply says, “Sir, it should be obvious that if you can’t afford the gas cap, you can’t afford the Porsche.” Or in Texas speak “We don’t negotiate with terrorists (yes I live in TX).”
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All the more reason, if Delany has been working on this for years, would you not make this consession to pull it off now lest it fall apart? Especially when a LonghornNetwork might fail (the BTN was no guarantee) and it certaily would be regional, while the BTN would become national and still make silly amounts of money and guarantee the BigTen as the number one conference. And how long do you hold out?
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@ crpodhaj: where I would agree would be on a BTN2, where an 80/20 (Big Ten/local) split was put in place for regional programming. Each state could produce its own content for local distribution without eliminating the content on BTN1 (which promotes the conference as a whole), while receiving some benefit for the realities of disproportionate revenue generation. The goal must remain All for All, but in this example where a Texas alone (without A&M) is generating over $80 million in new subscription fees, let’s not make the Perfect the enemy of the Good. Smart, creative people surely can come up with some solution like this.
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In order to get UT, A&M, UNC and Duke into the SEC, he would magically have to swap the SEC and Big Ten’s academic credentials. Who can he hire to make that happen? Jeannie? Samantha? Sabrina?
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How about Lucky the Leprechaun from Frosted Lucky Charms (“They’re magically delicious.”)?
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Big10jeff,
funny I already proposed this awhile back, with UT, A&M, UNC, and NC State ( I had state because it was a public, and has way more alumni (so could build a bigger FB stadium). Duke, while great in research, has a 30,000 seat stadium they can not fill.
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add
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Now I hear there may be a power struggle between the UT president (who wants the Big Ten, for academic reasons, or no change at all) and the AD (who wants to accept the Pac-10 deal). Things could get real juicy, folks.
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Doesn’t the AD work for the president?
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This is Texas we’re talking about.
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Really Off Topic,
but since it seems rather slow tonight I thought I would through this in for all of the lawyers here.
I’m Under Arrest for What? Fifty Bizarre U.S. Laws
http://www.divinecaroline.com/22323/99603-i-m-arrest-what-fifty-bizarre
It was on Yahoo’s front page today.
I thought this one was one of the best.
Florida
If you tie an elephant to a parking meter, you must pay the same parking fee as you would for a vehicle.
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weird it seems like the rate would be higher for an elephant because of the “clean up” surcharge. odd as this law seems, you have to remember in the old days when circus acts were the big deal. Most all companies all laid over in florida during the winter, so elephants might have been common and they have to go somewhere.
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ps.. if you are ever in southern indiana and you are near french lick or west baden, you should drive by and see the old west baden hotel that was the biggest dome before they built the one in NO. It was built like 100 years ago and was big and circular so they could have the circus operate inside.
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Breaking news…..Mizzou and Beebe issue deadline to remaining Big 12 schools to commit to sticking around…….or else!!!! Missouri and Baylor to conf USA?!
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yeah i feel stupid, but at this point .. is this a joke?
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Yes, I have finally cleaned out my spam folder.
Heh, duff, you do know everyone else is on a new thread don’t you?
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Wonder how Oklahoma State got into the Pac-16 deal?
Three years ago, T. Boone Pickens donated $100 million to the UT system ($50 million for each of two medical facilities). The money was placed in a fund and can’t be spent until the total grows to a specified amount, but in effect Pickens’ gift resulted in a stronger OSU-Texas relationship.
Pickens said he did not donate $100 million to UT with any foresight of eventual conference realignment, and that OSU would want to be grouped with Texas and Oklahoma if such movement were to occur.
However, he acknowledged, “it didn’t hurt.”
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/article.aspx?subjectid=2&articleid=20100611_93_B1_TBoone486739
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